EGC 2017

[Robert Jasiek]

According to http://www.eurogofed.org/calendar/calendar.htm
"~22.07.2017 ~06.08.2017 To be announced 61st
European Go Congress". According to
http://senseis.xmp.net/?RecentChanges "Monday, November 21, 2016 /
EuropeanGoCongress (diff +0) ... 37.219.189.225 / 'EGC Turkey
cancelled'". Who is IP 37.219.189.225? According to
http://www.egc17.com/ I wonder: will the congress be in Turkey or is
Turkey cancelled and does the 2017 congress move to a different
country?

I have attended European Go Congresses every year for 15 days from
1993 - 2016, that is, for 24 successive years and wanted to attend
each year during my life. Only a few players attend each year.
However, 2017 in Turkey I will not attend due to the current situation
(if it persists, and things appear to become worse) of partially
missing human (CSCE) rights, tens of thousands of officials having
been removed and at least thousands undue arrests. I do not travel to
Turkey because I do not want to give Turkish politicians the
impression that I would possibly tolerate such. Human rights are more
important than striving for a record of attendance or having its great
joy. I spent ca. 15 days of actual work for getting my visa to the
2016 congress in Russia so time for travel preparations does not
hinder me from attending congresses - systematic violations of human
rights in Turkey do. For these reasons, I would be extremely happy if
the congress moved to another country. Does "To be announced" indicate
this?

[Richard Mullens]

Post by Robert Jasiek
According to http://www.eurogofed.org/calendar/calendar.htm
"~22.07.2017 ~06.08.2017 To be announced 61st
European Go Congress". According to
http://senseis.xmp.net/?RecentChanges "Monday, November 21, 2016 /
EuropeanGoCongress (diff +0) ... 37.219.189.225 / 'EGC Turkey
cancelled'". Who is IP 37.219.189.225? According to
http://www.egc17.com/ I wonder: will the congress be in Turkey or is
Turkey cancelled and does the 2017 congress move to a different
country?

According to whois 37.219.189.225, someone from Finland probably.

[Robert Jasiek]

The EGC is moved to Sotchi.

[Robert Jasiek]

There will be a new ad hoc vote on the EGC 2017 country, this time
with the support of the EGF member countries:

http://www.eurogofed.org/index.html?id=91
http://www.eurogofed.org/egf/Russian-German-Letter-Congress-2017.pdf

[Robert Jasiek]

The new voting gives the EGF member countries the possibility to
better consider all aspects. Hopefully the time until the new "voting"
is used well and the delay still enables a good congress.

Among the aspects insufficiently considered so far are:

1) Tournament organisation quality (if all countries cooperate, the
quality might be similar in different countries).

2) Travel expenses for the average European using the default hotel
(cheaper accommodation will also be available): Germany permits
cheaper travel tickets, Russia permits cheaper hotel, visa costs
differ for players from different countries. So on average, travel
expenses of an individually travelling player might be similar. Except
for groups, for whom travel by car is hardly any option in the case of
Russia.

3) Time investment during travel: Germany incurs a bit delay because
of 3.5h train travel from a typical international airport. Russia
incurs delay because a safe flight connection requires some hours of
waiting when changing planes at, say, Moscow or Vienna. So time
investment during travel will be similar.

4) Time investment for visa: For players from several countries, up to
15 days of actual work must be invested to get a visa for Russia. For
Russians, up to 15 days of actual work must be invested to get a visa
for Germany (or another EU country). Clearly, players from more
countries have much less (often no) time investment for getting a visa
for Germany.

5) Same country twice in a row: this can be excused due to the
emergency.

6) Tourist attraction: this is a side aspect. Both venues offer good
tourist possibilities. I do not buy it that Sochi would offer sea and
mountains. Either the hotel will be close to the sea or close to the
mountains. For two Wednesdays, the other tourist aspects can be
visited, but the same can be said for Germany: On Wednesdays, far
excursions are also possible.

Apart from preferring Germany as a German, I see mainly one major
difference: the time investment for visa. Russia means I would need to
waste up to 15 days of my life just for getting the visa. I prefer a
country for that I do not have to waste much time for a piece of
paper.

[Richard Mullens]

On Monday, 5 December 2016 07:50:43 UTC, Robert Jasiek wrote:
<snip>
I too have done some research. For me, Sochi is the venue I prefer because

1) Sochi is by the sea but Oberhof is deep in the forest
2) Sochi has 300,000 inhabitants whereas Oberhof has 1/200'th of that
3) I can go to Germany any day of the week, but I would never visit Sochi otherwise
4) I would get bored looking at trees for two weeks
5) One can fly via Istanbul (I have never been there)
6) Accommodation at Sochi (apart from the Congress hotel) is cheaper
7) The campsite at Oberhof is not a practical proposition:

The campsite is 6km from Oberhof and 100+ metres lower in altitude. The terrain for cycling is "Difficult to average" and the nearest bus stop to the campsite is 3km. Dogs run loose at the campsite, most reviews mention a paucity of showers and toilets, the reservoir may be "water poor" in July/Aug and if it rains, the 6 km trip on foot may be rather miserable.

Against that there is the problem of a visa:-

I went to St Petersburg - it took me about 2 days to complete the visa form which I took to London. I paid extra for processing by the next day. It took me some time to obtain documentation as the Hotel (Azimut) ignored my request. But once I wrote to the correct person in the Russian organisation the documentation was turned around in one day.

So, if you are planning a two week stay, it can be cheaper to go to Sochi. I would stay a little longer.

[Robert Jasiek]

Post by Richard Mullens
1) Sochi is by the sea but Oberhof is deep in the forest
2) Sochi has 300,000 inhabitants whereas Oberhof has 1/200'th of that
3) I can go to Germany any day of the week, but I would never visit Sochi otherwise
4) I would get bored looking at trees for two weeks
5) One can fly via Istanbul (I have never been there)
6) Accommodation at Sochi (apart from the Congress hotel) is cheaper

Whilst I understand why you for yourself prefer Sochi based on your
reasons, I must say that they are reasons of making holiday rather
than reasons of attending a go congress. For me, apart from the visa
difficulty (difficulty to access the congress at all; I spent 15 days
of getting the visa for Saint Petersburg and the 2016 congress) and
travel expenses (incl. flight tickets, visa, price for accommodation
near congress site, food; amounts to similar expenses for Sochi than
Oberhof even if I travelled from the UK instead from Germany), the
major criterions are related to quality of tournament organisation
(much better in the German congresses Strausberg 2000 and Bonn 2012
than in the Russian congresses Saint Petersberg 2003 and Saint
Petersberg 2016).

Taking your holiday-orientated view for the moment, I prefer forest
and nature to the Disneyland atmosphere of Sochi at the sea. Sea would
make for a nice holiday if it were a resort close to nature but Sochi
is a heap of concrete.

I agree that camping is a bad option.

Bored from trees? Everybody has his own preferences! I love trees. The
decent temperature of the local climate also lets me play better go
than the summer heat sink of the Black Sea. It hurt me badly in
Romania 1998 (at the Black Sea, already sweatening from sitting) but
was very nice in Slovakia 1999 (trees in the lower mountains, played
6:4 due to the lower temperature). If it had been Terschelling, sea
would be ok but that congress was before my go playing time.

Post by Richard Mullens
So, if you are planning a two week stay, it can be cheaper to go to Sochi.

Travel expenses to Sochi depend on uncertainties: a flight booked
early might be ok but if you prefer waiting buying the flight tickets
until you have the visa, it can easily be EUR 400+. Cheapest
accommodation is said to be EUR 5 but at which distance from the
venue? Food from the supermarket will be cheaper unless you want food
of Western quality, which is only slightly cheaper in Russia. So the
rough expectation is that travel expenses will be similar in Sochi and
Oberhof.

Post by Richard Mullens
I went to St Petersburg - it took me about 2 days to complete the visa form which I took to London. I paid extra for processing by the next day. It took me some time to obtain documentation as the Hotel (Azimut) ignored my request. But once I wrote to the correct person in the Russian organisation the documentation was turned around in one day.

You are lucky that getting Russian visas seems to be much easier for
UK citizens than for German citizens at the moment.

[Richard Mullens]

Post by Robert Jasiek

Post by Richard Mullens
1) Sochi is by the sea but Oberhof is deep in the forest
2) Sochi has 300,000 inhabitants whereas Oberhof has 1/200'th of that
3) I can go to Germany any day of the week, but I would never visit Sochi otherwise
4) I would get bored looking at trees for two weeks
5) One can fly via Istanbul (I have never been there)
6) Accommodation at Sochi (apart from the Congress hotel) is cheaper

Whilst I understand why you for yourself prefer Sochi based on your
reasons, I must say that they are reasons of making holiday rather
than reasons of attending a go congress. For me, apart from the visa
difficulty (difficulty to access the congress at all; I spent 15 days
of getting the visa for Saint Petersburg and the 2016 congress) and
travel expenses (incl. flight tickets, visa, price for accommodation
near congress site, food; amounts to similar expenses for Sochi than
Oberhof even if I travelled from the UK instead from Germany), the
major criterions are related to quality of tournament organisation
(much better in the German congresses Strausberg 2000 and Bonn 2012
than in the Russian congresses Saint Petersberg 2003 and Saint
Petersberg 2016).

For me the quality of the organisation was "good enough". It is true that it was annoying at the start of a round not to be able to see how one's opponent had done so far, and the website wasn't updated in a timely manner with the results but I didn't notice any disaster in the main tournament. The main problem, in my opinion, is that people stayed away perhaps swayed by the propaganda of America and its friends who, for some reason, want there to be bad relations with Russia (perhaps to keep the armaments factories running).

Post by Robert Jasiek
Taking your holiday-orientated view for the moment, I prefer forest
and nature to the Disneyland atmosphere of Sochi at the sea. Sea would
make for a nice holiday if it were a resort close to nature but Sochi
is a heap of concrete.
I agree that camping is a bad option.
Bored from trees? Everybody has his own preferences! I love trees.

I love trees too, though I wonder how many varieties there will be near Oberhof.
After the tournament at Liberec I visited the botanical gardens at Leipzig where I made the serendipitous discovery of a magnificent Kaya tree (Torreya Nucifera) though, alas, I could not see any nuts and my cuttings didn't take. It seems that there are two arboreta in Sochi according to the wikitravel article - Dendrarium and Park of southern cultures.

Post by Robert Jasiek
The decent temperature of the local climate also lets me play better go
than the summer heat sink of the Black Sea. It hurt me badly in
Romania 1998 (at the Black Sea, already sweatening from sitting) but
was very nice in Slovakia 1999 (trees in the lower mountains, played
6:4 due to the lower temperature). If it had been Terschelling, sea
would be ok but that congress was before my go playing time.

Post by Richard Mullens
So, if you are planning a two week stay, it can be cheaper to go to Sochi.

Travel expenses to Sochi depend on uncertainties: a flight booked
early might be ok but if you prefer waiting buying the flight tickets
until you have the visa, it can easily be EUR 400+. Cheapest
accommodation is said to be EUR 5 but at which distance from the
venue? Food from the supermarket will be cheaper unless you want food
of Western quality, which is only slightly cheaper in Russia. So the
rough expectation is that travel expenses will be similar in Sochi and
Oberhof.

Post by Richard Mullens
I went to St Petersburg - it took me about 2 days to complete the visa form which I took to London. I paid extra for processing by the next day. It took me some time to obtain documentation as the Hotel (Azimut) ignored my request. But once I wrote to the correct person in the Russian organisation the documentation was turned around in one day.

You are lucky that getting Russian visas seems to be much easier for
UK citizens than for German citizens at the moment.

Well, I don't know why that should be.

Another reason to visit Sochi - well, I still have roubles left over from August in St Petersburg ! I greatly overestimated the amount of cash I would need and the hotel breakfast with a couple of smuggled hardboiled eggs and some black bread saw me through the day.

[Robert Jasiek]

Post by Richard Mullens
roubles left over

Which, if Sotchi does not make it, you exchange at a currency exchange
shop:)

[Bernhard Kraft]

Post by Richard Mullens
5) One can fly via Istanbul (I have never been there)

Are there direct flights in the summer?
I have never seen a depature to istambul here:
http://sochi-airport.com/flights/departures.html
Only flights to the former USSR.

[Richard Mullens]

Post by Bernhard Kraft

Post by Richard Mullens
5) One can fly via Istanbul (I have never been there)

Are there direct flights in the summer?
http://sochi-airport.com/flights/departures.html
Only flights to the former USSR.

OK, I performed a perfunctory check on Skyscanner. I may be wrong. I will check again.

[Richard Mullens]

Post by Richard Mullens

Post by Bernhard Kraft

Post by Richard Mullens
5) One can fly via Istanbul (I have never been there)

Are there direct flights in the summer?
http://sochi-airport.com/flights/departures.html
Only flights to the former USSR.

OK, I performed a perfunctory check on Skyscanner. I may be wrong. I will check again.

According to www.skyscanner.net there is a direct flight by Turkish Airlines from Istanbul Ataturk to Sochi on Friday 28'th July departing at 22:50 - that was the basis of my assertion.

[Robert Jasiek]

The EGC 2017 will be in Oberhof, Germany! "27 of 37 members voted and
with the proportional voting power the final result is 47 votes for
Oberhof and 9 for Sochi."

http://www.eurogofed.org/index.html?id=95

Votes:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N4sv2q2yQC7Qst42m0CORUVSeFsZd9sBz7Sw2VGq2Z8/edit?ts=584c1d5f#gid=0

Note that the EGF Committee then had to decide with a 2/3 majority.

[Robert Jasiek]

The congress webpage is assigned to the German congress:
http://www.egc2017.eu/

Martin Stiassny, EGF president, explains his view on the previous
months: http://www.eurogofed.org/egc/2017/personal_letter_EGC2017.pdf
It reads "sponsors, sponsors, sponsors" and neglects tournament
organisation and responsibility for participants in view of the human
rights / political situation in Turkey. If the quality of EGCs is as
important for Asians as he wants, he should not measure quality by
amount of money and noise / food of an opening ceremony but mainly by
the quality of overall congress and tournament organisation, which is
not / hardly measured by money.

Anyway, it is nice that finally organisation of the congress in
Germany can start meaningfully.

[Richard Mullens]

Post by Robert Jasiek
http://www.egc2017.eu/
Martin Stiassny, EGF president, explains his view on the previous
months: http://www.eurogofed.org/egc/2017/personal_letter_EGC2017.pdf
It reads "sponsors, sponsors, sponsors" and neglects tournament
organisation and responsibility for participants in view of the human
rights / political situation in Turkey. If the quality of EGCs is as
important for Asians as he wants, he should not measure quality by
amount of money and noise / food of an opening ceremony but mainly by
the quality of overall congress and tournament organisation, which is
not / hardly measured by money.
Anyway, it is nice that finally organisation of the congress in
Germany can start meaningfully.

Thanks for posting that. Nothing came as a surprise. You are right - the emphasis is on strong players and sponsors coming to a good class hotel and Asian visitors and their wives with thoughts for those who don't have so much money a second consideration.

I only once boycotted a tournament and that was in Frascati with the old FIGG in control. 90% of the French did so as well.

Turkey will be a basket case for some time but the situation has deteriorated all the time since the original seaside suggestion was turned down by the Mayor of wherever it was supposed to be and at that time it was acceptable. There is no doubt that Turkey has increased the number and strength of go players while we (the brits) are being overtaken.

In spite of what you say, the tournament organisation for 99% of the attendees in St Petersburg while not perfect was quite good enough and there was the innovation of a combined Chess & Go event. It is true that their attendance claims were inflated by a huge number of non-players, but I was impressed. I even unexpectedly received chocolates and fruit from the organisers and the hotel on my birthday.

[Robert Jasiek]

Post by Richard Mullens
There is no doubt that Turkey has increased the number and strength of go players

Absolutely. A few years ago, I attended the European Pairgo
Championship and had the chance to play some Turkish players. Among
them a 3d playing like solid German 4d. Also the kyus are good for
their ranks. Overall, the level is much better than one would expect
15 years ago (when dan level had been a dream). It is very bad luck
for them that the political situation did not reasonably permit the
EGC in Turkey.

Post by Richard Mullens
I even unexpectedly received chocolates and fruit from the organisers
and the hotel on my birthday.

:)