Discussion:
Debunked Michael Redmond's Positional Judgement
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Robert Jasiek
2016-03-15 11:25:45 UTC
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A few years ago, seemingly convincing rumours have been spread saying
that, during the opening and middle game, Michael Redmond 9p could
make an accurate territorial positional judgement by reading ahead the
game using endgame-like sequences of 100 globally optimal plays. The
myth was born that using endgame-like sequences was a feasible method
for super-strong players for making an accurate territorial positional
judgement also during the opening and middle game.

Redmond's own territorial positional judgement during his live
commentaries of the 5 games of the match AlphaGo - Lee Sedol debunk
the rumour, which was very far from the truth. Besides, he only
occasionally showed hints of making non-territorial positional
judgement at all.

Whenever Redmond was supposed to make a territorial positional
judgement during the opening, middle game, early endgame or middle
endgame, he interrupted the unfinished task, only gave very rough
counts, said that making a territorial positional judgement was too
early or said that it was too difficult [for him] to be done at all at
the moment. When making a partial, local territorial positional
judgement, he used the core idea of minimal remaining territory after
reductions, which is also used by Cho Chikun and me. However, even
then Redmond did not apply much beyond the core. Instead, he had
difficulties relating, and calculating consistently for, different
parts of a position. Although I watched most of his comments, I did
not even once witness Redmond doing an accurate territorial positional
judgement of the whole position until the micro-endgame. His use of
the method of minimal remaining territory after reductions means that,
during the mentioned stages of the game, he does not use the rumoured
method of very long, global endgame-like sequences.

Nevertheless, he reported how he had studied the endgame: he had taken
pro games, removed the last 30, 50, 70 or 100 moves before the final
scoring positions, printed out the created positions and then imagined
endgames for them. He explained that 100 moves had been too hard, 70
already very hard and 50 significantly less easy than 30. Surely this
method of study is worth trying for improving one's late endgame.
However, it is not the method he uses for territorial positional
judgement during earlier stages of the game.

"100, endgame, counting territory, Redmond" must have been the
keywords causing the rumour, and the people creating it might have
misunderstood, overestimated his skill and confused positional
judgement during the micro-endgame with territorial positional
judgement during the opening, middle game, early endgame or middle
endgame.

Myth debunked!

How about the other myth of perfect endgame (starting during the early
middle game) of Edo players, when games were played with unlimited
thinking times?
Bill
2016-03-16 10:12:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Jasiek
A few years ago, seemingly convincing rumours have been spread saying
that, during the opening and middle game, Michael Redmond 9p could
make an accurate territorial positional judgement by reading ahead the
game using endgame <snip>
Why would you work so hard to discredit someone's abilities? Do you
have a vendetta with him?
Having listened to him for about 15 hours last week, I thought he was
refreshingly articulate.

Bill
Robert Jasiek
2016-03-16 14:14:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
Why would you work so hard to discredit someone's abilities?
Praise for what deserves praise (his great contribution to go by doing
so much live commentary) and criticism for what deserves criticism
(his positional judgement).

A few years ago, I had a period of several years during which I had a
hard time learning from modern professional games. One of the reasons
was that I could not distinguish their correct moves from their
mistakes. The better I learn doing it the more I learn from the games.
The same applies to my own games, or to (live) commentaries. Learning
from mistakes as if they were none halts progress or even decreases
strength of the learner. I point out mistakes so that I and everybody
interested can better learn by recognising the mistakes and avoiding
from learning bad things from them.

The AlphaGo team and other programmers also want to learn from the
games, and I prefer to help them by mentioning the weakest part of the
oommentaries.

You might as well ask why it was possible that a culture was
established in which professional players are treated like sacred
people beyond making mistakes. I prefer an open discussion culture in
which both correct statements and mistakes are discussed for the
benefit of everybody.

In this particular case, great efforts had been made to glorify
Redmond, and I fell in the trap of believing it. Now that I recognise
the myth as what it is, I am all the more motivated to reveal it.
Besides, the myth had been created as a means to weaken my own
contributions to methods of positional judgement. Maybe you understand
that I cannot let this go unnoticed.

You mention my discrediting of someone's abilities, but 1) I only
criticise his specific weak skill in positional judgement until the
micro-endgame and 2) Redmond himself has shown that his related skill
is relatively weak and so I am not "discrediting" it but assessing it.

Why I work so hard? Because I want to be sure that my criticism is
appropriate. When criticising a professional 9 dan, the critic better
knows what he states so that he does not make undue criticism.
Bill
2016-03-17 01:15:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Jasiek
Post by Bill
Why would you work so hard to discredit someone's abilities?
Praise for what deserves praise (his great contribution to go by doing
so much live commentary) and criticism for what deserves criticism
(his positional judgement).
A few years ago, I had a period of several years during which I had a
hard time learning from modern professional games. One of the reasons
was that I could not distinguish their correct moves from their
mistakes. The better I learn doing it the more I learn from the games.
The same applies to my own games, or to (live) commentaries. Learning
from mistakes as if they were none halts progress or even decreases
strength of the learner. I point out mistakes so that I and everybody
interested can better learn by recognising the mistakes and avoiding
from learning bad things from them.
The AlphaGo team and other programmers also want to learn from the
games, and I prefer to help them by mentioning the weakest part of the
oommentaries.
You might as well ask why it was possible that a culture was
established in which professional players are treated like sacred
people beyond making mistakes. I prefer an open discussion culture in
which both correct statements and mistakes are discussed for the
benefit of everybody.
In this particular case, great efforts had been made to glorify
Redmond, and I fell in the trap of believing it. Now that I recognise
the myth as what it is, I am all the more motivated to reveal it.
Besides, the myth had been created as a means to weaken my own
contributions to methods of positional judgement. Maybe you understand
that I cannot let this go unnoticed.
You mention my discrediting of someone's abilities, but 1) I only
criticise his specific weak skill in positional judgement until the
micro-endgame and 2) Redmond himself has shown that his related skill
is relatively weak and so I am not "discrediting" it but assessing it.
Why I work so hard? Because I want to be sure that my criticism is
appropriate. When criticising a professional 9 dan, the critic better
knows what he states so that he does not make undue criticism.
If you are interested in a fair rebuttal of your comments, you would
need to post them somewhere like LifeIn19x19, I think. It is not a
debate that I would consider starting, but it's sort of started. The
truth is probably that "none of our heros are perfect"...

Bill
Rainer Rosenthal
2016-03-16 14:15:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
Post by Robert Jasiek
A few years ago, seemingly convincing rumours have been spread saying
that, during the opening and middle game, Michael Redmond 9p could
make an accurate territorial positional judgement by reading ahead the
game using endgame <snip>
Why would you work so hard to discredit someone's abilities? Do you
have a vendetta with him?
Having listened to him for about 15 hours last week, I thought he was
refreshingly articulate.
Bill
Hi Bill,

I believe that Robert does not intend to harm anybody, but that his aim
for "the truth" ignores many conventions and feelings.
Nonetheless I appreciate his firm belief in "the power of theory".

You may like the following paper with respect to general non-human
"intelligence":
https://intelligence.org/files/IEM.pdf

Cheers,
Rainer
Bill
2016-03-17 01:19:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rainer Rosenthal
You may like the following paper with respect to general non-human
https://intelligence.org/files/IEM.pdf
Cheers,
Rainer
Thank you. It looks interesting, and I saved a copy to read.

Bill

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