GOmove, a modest variant. (Anticipated?) (Crossposted from rec.games.abstract.)

[m***@gmail.com]

How does Go change if you allow movement?

Keep all Go rules as they are, and add this one:
Players may move 1 stone 1 intersection, moving along the grid lines, each turn.

As it makes a difference whether the move is made before or after the drop, players may choose either each turn, for maximum flexibility.

The move is optional each turn. The drop is not.

DISCLAIMER: I believe Go is the quintessential drop game, and certainly does not need any improvement, as it might well be the best game ever designed, and is almost certainly the best abstract.

GOmove started as a thought experiment, and is proving quite interesting in early play. Here's a game being played on Game Courier. As I don't program at all, I'm stuck using what I can to play experimental designs online, so the game is played on a 19x19 square grid with red and black markers placed in the squares and not on the intersections. Admittedly ugly, but it works.

http://play.chessvariants.com/pbm/play.php?game=GOmove&log=joejoyce-bruck-2017-249-982

What I'm looking for is someone to playtest this game. If you've got a better venue, please let me know. I admit to being surprised that I couldn't find any mention of this game anywhere. It seems a very easy and logical variant, and this version gives the least change from the original. SO if you are aware of this or similar games, please let me know.

[Robert Jasiek]

The game would be simplified greatly because players need to build
very defensive shapes.

[m***@gmail.com]

Post by Robert Jasiek
The game would be simplified greatly because players need to build
very defensive shapes.

Thank you for the reply, Robert. I originally tended to agree about the defensive part, but don't trust that answer because in playing, I've found that I will take chances I otherwise wouldn't because I can both drop aid and move a threatened stone out of immediate danger in the same turn. More tactically, if a player has a preponderance of stones in a limited area, it can allow the attack 2 actions per turn more often than the defense gets 2 actions/turn,forcing the defense to contract or lose stones, losing territory to the opponent. The game link I gave above illustrates some of these ideas even though it's only about a dozen turns in. (Of course, neither player is very good.)

[Terrybenson]

Mijo (and Robert)

This is an excellent idea for a "Crazy Go" variant. I'll add it to next year's Go Congress. (I run Crazy Go at the US Go Congress.)

The basic question is whether one allows two actions each turn or only one. I would be inclined to limit a player to either place a stone or move a stone. That might be a tricky decision. It will take longer to finish a game - one can imagine a series of stone moves with no stones being placed at all.

Allowing a placement *and* a move will - as Robert suggests - require more defensive positions (not unlike "Binary Go" which allows 2 stones per move).

One variant of Joker Go (which has decks of cards with stone patterns) limits players to either take a card and play it or to play a single stone (reserving your cards for later).

One could limit the number of times one could move a stone - each time you move instead of placing the stone not placed would be put on the side of the board to a maximum of - say - 10 or 15.

Better (in my view) one could also make the choice of a move instead of placing cost a prisoner (like a pass stone - call it a "move stone").

I would in any case use a small board (max 13x13) for experimentation.

I will be interested in the results of actual play.

It doesn't matter (to me) if the variant is only interesting to lower kyu players or if it doesn't "work" for stronger players. If it's a fun game, play it!

Post by m***@gmail.com

Post by Robert Jasiek
The game would be simplified greatly because players need to build
very defensive shapes.

Thank you for the reply, Robert. I originally tended to agree about the defensive part, but don't trust that answer because in playing, I've found that I will take chances I otherwise wouldn't because I can both drop aid and move a threatened stone out of immediate danger in the same turn. More tactically, if a player has a preponderance of stones in a limited area, it can allow the attack 2 actions per turn more often than the defense gets 2 actions/turn,forcing the defense to contract or lose stones, losing territory to the opponent. The game link I gave above illustrates some of these ideas even though it's only about a dozen turns in. (Of course, neither player is very good.)

[m***@gmail.com]

Hello, Terry. Please call me Joe. (My email is mjjoyce3 at gmail, but I use my middle name.) I thank you for your very kind offer; I am honored and flattered.

I also am interested in the results of actual play. Are there online venues where the game could be played, both live and by email? I would enjoy playing a game or two myself. Of course the kludge at chessvariants.org could be used, but it's ugly and I don't know how to make anything else.

I would presume to the extent that I ask the original variant be an option. The ('unlimited') 1 drop + 1 move/player-turn is actually pretty limited, but it does allow a flow to the game that limitations remove. At least that's been my experience in other games with and without 'similar' limitations.

[Terrybenson]

Post by m***@gmail.com
Hello, Terry. Please call me Joe. (My email is mjjoyce3 at gmail, but I use my middle name.) I thank you for your very kind offer; I am honored and flattered.
I also am interested in the results of actual play. Are there online venues where the game could be played, both live and by email? I would enjoy playing a game or two myself. Of course the kludge at chessvariants.org could be used, but it's ugly and I don't know how to make anything else.
I would presume to the extent that I ask the original variant be an option. The ('unlimited') 1 drop + 1 move/player-turn is actually pretty limited, but it does allow a flow to the game that limitations remove. At least that's been my experience in other games with and without 'similar' limitations.

Joe
It's your variant. 1 drop and 1 move. We'll see. I don't know of any site online to play CrazyGo. Someone will have to create it.

Unless I get the Mexicans to play it at the Ibero-American congress, you'll have to wait to next US Go Congress for results from me.

Thanks.

Terry

[l***@gmail.com]

You could play it real-time on the www.iggamecenter.com sandbox.

[m***@gmail.com]

Post by l***@gmail.com
You could play it real-time on the www.iggamecenter.com sandbox.

Hey Joyce do not use igggamecenter if you do not have huge knowledge of computing. This site is a trap. Soon or later your computer and its contents will go public.

[Adrian Petrescu]

Post by m***@gmail.com
Hey Joyce do not use igggamecenter if you do not have huge knowledge of computing. This site is a trap. Soon or later your computer and its contents will go public.

Out of curiosity, what gives you this impression? (It's not true, or
even possible, coming from a browser)

[m***@gmail.com]

Terry, only the initial idea was mine. The game is everybody's. Change it however you see fit. That's always been my philosophy for every game design I've put online (around 50, I guess, mostly chess variants. I'm an editor at chessvariants.org) Some of my best games incorporate ideas or changes asked for or demanded by players. I see game design as a collaboration among designers, developers, and players, and am happy to have any versions of my designs played. I do suspect the 1 drop + 1 (optional) move will be the purest form of the idea. And where will the event be held? If possible, I'd like to at least drop by, and maybe even play a game.

I'm totally unfamiliar with the modern state of Go, and I haven't played a game in forever. ... Ah, Luis has answered me, and Moh.

Luis, thanks! I will have to look at that and see if I can figure it out. And also find an opponent.

Moh, not to worry. I can use an old laptop.

Now all I need are opponents/playtesters...

[l***@gmail.com]

mjjo, a few weeks ago I played this exact Go variant against a player called PCM on the igGameCenter sandbox. He's often around, so, if you post a comment for him on the general chat, chances are you'll get a game going within a few days.

[m***@gmail.com]

Post by l***@gmail.com
mjjo, a few weeks ago I played this exact Go variant against a player called PCM on the igGameCenter sandbox. He's often around, so, if you post a comment for him on the general chat, chances are you'll get a game going within a few days.

Hi, Luis. Thanks for that info!
Joe Joyce

[Luis Bolaños Mures]

Post by m***@gmail.com

Post by l***@gmail.com
mjjo, a few weeks ago I played this exact Go variant against a player called PCM on the igGameCenter sandbox. He's often around, so, if you post a comment for him on the general chat, chances are you'll get a game going within a few days.

Hi, Luis. Thanks for that info!
Joe Joyce

No problem. I'm Gatsby there, by the way.

[m***@gmail.com]

Hi, Gatsby! Grin, I'm Joe Joyce on igGames, have enough trouble remembering that name! So you saw the game we played. It played beautifully! I played terribly, but it seems to work extremely well, with no problems that I saw. If you noticed anything, or have any comments, I'd be glad to hear them, good, bad, or indifferent. (Truthfully, the bad and indifferent ones give me more info than the good reviews...)

That game and the discussion with PCM answers 1 question, that of board size. PCM stated that the game did not work on a 13 x 13. The 2 sides each created a huge 'base' from which to work, collapsing the strategy and tactics of Go. After completing 1 game and being about 35 moves into another on 19x19 boards, this 'collapse' hasn't happened. Instead, the games are developing more or less normally.

My buddy Uri, playing the email game, asked if the handicapping system could be used. It could, but the more stones placed as handicap, the greater the advantage to black in the opening, because white will have few opportunities to move aid to a threatened position, and will be all but surrounded by now-mobile stones. This variant might be better on larger than 19x19 boards.

[Terrybenson]

The Ibero-American Go Congress will be in Cancun, Mexico Oct. 12-16.

The next US Go Congress will be in Williamsburg VA July 2018. I always run an evening of Crazy Go on the Tuesday of the Congress.

I am also the rules committee chair for the American Go Association and I have been involved with Go rules internationally for 40 years. Rules are key to what makes a game fun

I'll use your main variant. We will see why the players want to do.

Thanks.

Terry

[m***@gmail.com]

Terry, thanks. I live in New York, so Mexico is highly unlikely, but Virginia should be pretty easy to make. Can a stranger just wander in off the street and play in or at least watch the Crazy Go session?

Joe

[Terrybenson]

The US Go Congress has a day rate for those who come for part of the congress. There are lectures in the afternoon and multiple events in the evening including (on Tuesday) Crazy Go.

It's a great week of go if you can afford the time and the money.

Terry

[m***@gmail.com]

Post by Terrybenson
The US Go Congress has a day rate for those who come for part of the congress. There are lectures in the afternoon and multiple events in the evening including (on Tuesday) Crazy Go.
It's a great week of go if you can afford the time and the money.
Terry

Terry, my wife has always wanted to see Colonial Williamsburg... I believe I can make at least Tuesday evening. :)

I chatted with and played a game with someone who had a similar idea, courtesy of Luis. The basic game info learned is in my reply to Luis, just above.

Joe

[m***@gmail.com]

I have a game score for the completed game, and just looked it over to see what it showed (besides how poorly I play.) The game went 100 turns, and 77 of them included a move, so there were 177 actions in the game. What's the standard game length for 19x19 Go? Then consider that I started with both tactical and strategic mistakes, and essentially got crushed rather easily.

One thing I noticed that makes this different, I think, is that defenses contract to save stones. This is why the 13x13 didn't work. And it's why I think this game would be a bit better on somewhat larger boards.

[m***@gmail.com]

Apologies for the delay in posting this score, got food poisoning.

1. GAME "Crazy Go"

2. Joe Joyce G7k
3. PCM E5w
4. Joe Joyce G5k
5. PCM E7w
6. Joe Joyce E8k G7- F7k
7. PCM E6w
8. Joe Joyce G7k F8k F7-
9. PCM E3w
10. Joe Joyce G3k
11. PCM F4w
12. Joe Joyce G5- G4k G6k
13. PCM D8w
14. Joe Joyce D9k
15. PCM E7- D7w C9w
16. Joe Joyce D10k
17. PCM E5- F5w C10w
18. Joe Joyce D12k
19. PCM P16w
20. Joe Joyce O15k
21. PCM P16- P15w O5w
22. Joe Joyce O7k O15- O14k
23. PCM F5- G5w H5w
24. Joe Joyce H4k H6k G6-
25. PCM O5- I5w N5w
26. Joe Joyce B10k D12- C12k
27. PCM P15- O15w C11w
28. Joe Joyce D11k B10- B11k
29. PCM D15w
30. Joe Joyce D13k O7- O6k
31. PCM F15w
32. Joe Joyce J6k O6- N6k
33. PCM J5w
34. Joe Joyce K6k H6- H7k
35. PCM N5- M5w K5w
36. Joe Joyce G3- F3k L6k
37. PCM E2w
38. Joe Joyce F14k L6- M6k
39. PCM D15- E15w G14w
40. Joe Joyce E14k D13- D14k
41. PCM D15w
42. Joe Joyce C15k B11- B12k
43. PCM C16w
44. Joe Joyce G13k O14- N14k
45. PCM J11w
46. Joe Joyce H13k
47. PCM H14w
48. Joe Joyce I13k M14k N14-
49. PCM J11- J10w L8w
50. Joe Joyce L7k I13- I14k
51. PCM I5- I6w I7w
52. Joe Joyce K7k J6- J7k
53. PCM M5- L5w I8w
54. Joe Joyce K8k M6- M7k
55. PCM L8- L9w I9w
56. Joe Joyce H9k L7- L8k
57. PCM O15- N15w I13w
58. Joe Joyce I12k M14- M13k
59. PCM J10- J11w J13w
60. Joe Joyce J12k M13- L13k
61. PCM J13- J14w I15w I14-
62. Joe Joyce J12- J13k I14k I13-
63. PCM L9- M9w B15w
64. Joe Joyce I14- I13k C14k
65. PCM J11- J10w P5w
66. Joe Joyce M8k I12- I11k
67. PCM J10- I10w P15w
68. Joe Joyce H10k L13- L12k
69. PCM M9- N9w P6w
70. Joe Joyce N8k M8- M9k
71. PCM N9- O9w O8w
72. Joe Joyce L6k M9- N9k
73. PCM M5w
74. Joe Joyce O10k
75. PCM P10w
76. Joe Joyce J10k L12- M12k
77. PCM I15- I14w O11w
78. Joe Joyce N10k M12- N12k
79. PCM N15- N14w N11w
80. Joe Joyce M11k N12- N13k
81. PCM P15- P14w M12w
82. Joe Joyce L12k N13- M13k
83. PCM N11- N12w N13w
84. Joe Joyce M14k G4- G3k
85. PCM J14- K14w M15w
86. Joe Joyce L13k J13- K13k
87. PCM P14- P15w L15w
88. Joe Joyce J13k M7- M6k
89. PCM K14- K15w N5w
90. Joe Joyce O7k N6- N7k
91. PCM P5- O5w P7w
92. Joe Joyce J13- J14k J15k
93. PCM I14- I15w J16w
94. Joe Joyce I13- I14k A15k
95. PCM K15- K16w B14w
96. Joe Joyce A14k B12- B13k
97. PCM O5- O6w B16w
98. Joe Joyce M11- N11k P12k
99. PCM P11w
100. Joe Joyce H4- H3k I3k
101. PCM K2w