New player

http://senseis.xmp.net/?GoBooks

Have also a look here: http://senseis.xmp.net/

-alex-

Bill

2015-12-08 13:11:26 UTC

Post by alex
http://senseis.xmp.net/?GoBooks
Have also a look here: http://senseis.xmp.net/
-alex-

Thank you for the links! It looks like there is a great deal there.
Almost "too many" books! : )
I am leaning towards those by Richard Bozulich and also Robert Jasiek,
since I see he posts here. I took a break from my practice and I haven't
got any lower than kyu 13 on Igowin today. I may try a little more...

Cheers,
Bill

Bill

2015-12-08 14:45:20 UTC

I took a break from my practice and I haven't got any lower than kyu
13 on Igowin today. I may try a little more...

Okay, I got to 12 kyu. It's a tough little program for those of us who
are still occasionally getting tricked (by false eyes....) Highly
recommended! : )

alex

2015-12-09 12:27:43 UTC

See also http://senseis.xmp.net/?IgowinIsBadForYourGame ;-)

Bill

2015-12-09 13:46:09 UTC

Post by alex
See also http://senseis.xmp.net/?IgowinIsBadForYourGame ;-)

On the other hand, if I hadn't found it I might not be playing at all.
So, it is good advertising for the game. I'm surprised there are not
more fans than there are for the FPS games (that I have no interest
in)... Of course, at this point, I'm not sure whether Go is a game or
something else... The way it is ranked, it seems like more of a personal
game than a social one. I used to enjoy playing Backgammon in a chouette
(i.e. as part of a "team"). Reading a few comments people make while
watching Go games online is slightly like that.

Bill

Hal Womack 3-dan

2015-12-12 09:45:56 UTC

In the last twenty years or so, since Mark Okada of the San Francisco Go Club* first invented IGS**, the worldwide revolutionary rise of online play at several venues has put a lot of pressure on old-fashioned traditional-style Go clubs which were struggling to establish themselves in the Barbarian*** World.
* http://sfgoclub.com/
** Now http://tinyurl.com/o69ojjc OR
http://pandanet-igs.com/communities/pandanet
...............................
*** [My own suggested term for all those "dot" realms outside the three "slope" home countries of the game.]
.....................................
Why bother to go all the way across town, pay dues and then have to take your chances on an appropriate opponent showing up at all, when at any hour of the week in the comfort of your own home you can simply turn on the Magic Cosmic Box and play for free against someone of about your own rank and have the game perfectly recorded, to boot?

My own paternal grandmother fondly recalled how, as a young girl of an ordinary (white) family in her rural village in North Texas, she used to ride her pony to school. I feel with similar nostalgia about the rich pan-racial social atmosphere of the SFGC under the leadership of the late Shinji Dote 4-dan in the grand old temple in "Jtown". This idyll existed from 1935, with a concentration camp interval for the Atomic War aka WW2, until 1994 when C.I.A. Mayor Frank Jordan suddenly & foully expelled us from the City-owned property, apparently in response to a Usenet article I posted WRT Hillary Clinton's impending visit to SFSU, which had recommended a hangman's noose as a gift for her husband to mark his infamous JeWar crimes against Iraq.

Anyhoo, to return to the question of present-day beginners in the USA, one supposes that 'twould be of interest to use the AGA* Website to try to track the nearest occasional ITF or In The Flesh tournament in one's given area.
* http://www.usgo.org/

AFAIK all tournaments welcome beginners as well as stronger players.

In passing we also take note of the second recent revolutionary digital development in this most ancient game, namely that bots can now beat in even games something like 90% of all human players. On KGS*, for example, see player-name GinseiIgo [5d]**
or "CrazyStone" [4d?] and other strong programs in the Computer Go Room.
...........................
* https://www.gokgs.com/
............................
**
次期製品版銀星囲碁のテストバージョンです。
使用PCはcore i7-980（6コア 3.33GHz）です。
This bot is test version of the Ginsei Igo product edition.
CPU Core i7-980(6core 3.33GHz)
SilverStarJapan Co.,Ltd
.................................
The Movies:
The Go Master (2006)
"Wu Qingyuan" (original title)
WIKI: [The Go Master (呉清源極みの棋譜 Go Seigen: Kiwami no Kifu?)is a 2006 biopic film directed by Tian Zhuangzhuang of the renowned twentieth century Go master Wu Qingyuan, better known by his adopted Japanese name of Go Seigen. The film, which premiered at the 44th New York Film Festival, focuses on the life of this extraordinary player from his meteoric rise as a child prodigy to fame and fortune as a revolutionary strategic thinker, as well as the tumultuous global conflicts between his homeland and his adopted nation. The film also features a scene involving the Atomic bomb go game. The film also screened at the AFI's China Film Festival in Silver Spring, Maryland....]
..............................................
http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/the-go-masters-1986
[ Roger Ebert
May 9, 1986
"The Go Masters" begins and ends with the same game of Go, but 32 years separate the opening and closing moves. In between, there is war and heartbreak, death and disease, doomed lovers, families separated by fate and united by chance. The movie is a melodrama on an epic scale, an Asian "Gone With the Wind," filled with romance and action but built on a foundation of Eastern philosophy.]

============================

Post by alex
See also http://senseis.xmp.net/?IgowinIsBadForYourGame ;-)

Bill

2015-12-14 11:31:52 UTC

Hal Womack 3-dan wrote:
<snipped>

Why bother to go all the way across town, pay dues and then have to take
your chances on an appropriate opponent showing up at all, when at any
hour of the week in the comfort of your own home you can simply turn on
the Magic Cosmic Box and play for free against someone of about your own
rank and have the game perfectly recorded, to boot?
-------------

Ah, saving a recording of the game is a good idea. I played 2 games
against MFOG-12k this morning (got beat). Of course, I know at least
one of my main problems is desiring not to multitask and stick with my
2-6 bit "problem at hand" while my opponent is staking claims all over
the board... There is a 30 second time clock too, so game time is a
tough time to solve new problems. That makes my 5th or 6th game on a
19^2 board. Maybe it will appear smaller with time... : ) Have fun
out there!

Bill

Robert Jasiek

2015-12-12 09:26:08 UTC

Post by Bill
I am leaning towards those by Richard Bozulich and also Robert Jasiek

Basically you need four books:
- In the Beginning for very basic strategy
- First Fundamentals for the fundamentals (Lessons in the Fundamentals
is more suitable for players already knowing the contents of First
Fundamentals)
- a book with very easy life and death reading problems (I know none
that I would want to recommend; either the books are already above
absolute beginner level (Life and Death Problems 1, or Life and Death
from Davies) or they are easy enough but contain too few problems and
are written in Japanese or German. If you can wait 3 or 4 months,
there is a chance that my second-next book will fill the gap in the
literature.)
- a book with very easy tactical problems (either Graded Go Problems
for Beginners 1 (if you still overlook the simplest atari) or vol. 2
(otherwise))

Books from Bozulich are beyond your (absolute) beginner level.

12 kyu against a computer program means nothing. From your description
of how few real games you have played, likely your real world rank is
weaker than 25 kyu. No need to worry, because becoming real world 15
kyu is easy enough with the suitable advice (from books or other
players). Play humans!

Bill

2015-12-12 11:44:37 UTC

Post by Bill
I am leaning towards those by Richard Bozulich and also Robert Jasiek

- In the Beginning for very basic strategy
- First Fundamentals for the fundamentals (Lessons in the Fundamentals
is more suitable for players already knowing the contents of First
Fundamentals)
- a book with very easy life and death reading problems (I know none
that I would want to recommend; either the books are already above
absolute beginner level (Life and Death Problems 1, or Life and Death
from Davies) or they are easy enough but contain too few problems and
are written in Japanese or German. If you can wait 3 or 4 months,
there is a chance that my second-next book will fill the gap in the
literature.)
- a book with very easy tactical problems (either Graded Go Problems
for Beginners 1 (if you still overlook the simplest atari) or vol. 2
(otherwise))
Books from Bozulich are beyond your (absolute) beginner level.

It is nice of you to reply to my post.
I know Bozulich was a mathematician. Is there an academic field that you
identify with which might give me some perspective on your
books/teaching? I'm guessing, maybe physics?

Bill

Post by Robert Jasiek
12 kyu against a computer program means nothing. From your description
of how few real games you have played, likely your real world rank is
weaker than 25 kyu. No need to worry, because becoming real world 15
kyu is easy enough with the suitable advice (from books or other
players). Play humans!

Robert Jasiek

2015-12-12 13:00:18 UTC

Is there an academic field that you identify with which might give me some perspective on your
books/teaching?

I studied mathematics and informatics (until I studied too much go).
In a few of my books, there is easy applied maths (mostly as easy as
elementary school). In my teaching, I sometimes use such if the
(intermediate to strong) pupil is prepared for it. My books for
beginners mostly avoid maths. You can find slightly more advanced
maths in my mathematical go theory research (which at the moment is
unsuitable for your learning).

It is not so much academic fields (such as maths) that would
characterise my books but (besides examples / problems) they have the
following features:

- clear explanation and reasoning
- general applicability
- structure of the contents
- consistency of the theory
- consistency of the terms

So you might say that my books share a few good features every
academic field should use. It would be an exaggeration to say exactly
the same of my teaching because its quality depends on the fee and
therefore time spent.

For a better view on my books, see the samples and self-reviews here:
http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/books.html

Bill

2015-12-12 15:51:50 UTC

Is there an academic field that you identify with which might give me some perspective on your
books/teaching?

I studied mathematics and informatics (until I studied too much go).
In a few of my books, there is easy applied maths (mostly as easy as
elementary school). In my teaching, I sometimes use such if the
(intermediate to strong) pupil is prepared for it. My books for
beginners mostly avoid maths. You can find slightly more advanced
maths in my mathematical go theory research (which at the moment is
unsuitable for your learning).
It is not so much academic fields (such as maths) that would
characterise my books but (besides examples / problems) they have the
- clear explanation and reasoning
- general applicability
- structure of the contents
- consistency of the theory
- consistency of the terms
So you might say that my books share a few good features every
academic field should use. It would be an exaggeration to say exactly
the same of my teaching because its quality depends on the fee and
therefore time spent.
http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/books.html

I took it for granted that your books were intended at "teaching tools"
(not necessarily for use in a classroom). I have a math background
too. I will look at your samples and reviews. Thank you for the link
and for your reply! From what I see math comes up in go in the form of
expected value, comparing the relative value of various groups based
upon one's chance of establishing them and their size. Of course, one
has to combine that with the relative shape left by the outcome in each
case (how's that for an (absolute) beginner?). ; )

I am actually interested in go from the computational aspect too (neural
networks, search, etc.). About 15 years ago I wrote a backgammon
program as a course project that had a neural-network approach (which
worked "okay" considering it only learned by trial and error). I took
some satisfaction in the fact that it learned to like to "hit" on its
own.. : ) I enjoy watching the AI people trying to grapple with the
problem of playing Go. I did some reading on it the other day, a thesis
from about 2008, because I was curious about the data structures that
they found relevant (I think binary tree is fundamental, with the
difficulty left of finding a good evaluation function). I assume
progress is being made on this every day.

Bill

Robert Jasiek

2015-12-12 16:02:48 UTC

I assume progress is being made on this every day.

Current go programs are at amateur dan level by using modified Monte
Carlo (playing many dull test follow-up games per next move candidate
to see if most of them result in "win" rather than "loss").

Bill

2015-12-12 16:32:40 UTC

I assume progress is being made on this every day.

Current go programs are at amateur dan level by using modified Monte
Carlo (playing many dull test follow-up games per next move candidate
to see if most of them result in "win" rather than "loss").

The thesis I read involved using that technique (Monte Carlo) along with
a huge database of board positions from past games, broken up into grids
of various sizes (down to 3x3). Do you not think this is an interesting
computer problem?
Or do you think it's computational complexity is no match for a computer
(versus a human)? For me, this is an aspect of Go that makes it
intriguing...how to (try to possibly) implement the various "heuristics"
that are the cornerstones of your books, I suspect. Of course, I only
watch this from the sidelines as an interested observer.

Bill

Robert Jasiek

2015-12-12 17:23:25 UTC

Do you not think this is an interesting computer problem?

For the sake of creating a "strong" program, yes. For the sake of
creating explanations for human beings, no. Monte Carlo makes programs
strong because computers think fast - human players are strong because
they understand their decision-making.

Or do you think it's computational complexity

What "computational complexity"? It is constant (for a big constant,
such as 100,000 test games), as the standard joke about O(1) has it.

this is an aspect of Go that makes it
intriguing...how to (try to possibly) implement the various "heuristics"
that are the cornerstones of your books, I suspect.

Yes, except that I need to write many more books for that purpose.

Bill

2015-12-13 01:09:41 UTC

Post by Bill
this is an aspect of Go that makes it
intriguing...how to (try to possibly) implement the various "heuristics"
that are the cornerstones of your books, I suspect.

Yes, except that I need to write many more books for that purpose.

Or you could write just one successful computer program--of course, this
challenge may be a little much for one person. It find it interesting
that one can approach Go as something of a scientist or as something of
an artist (with its various heuristics). Chess, for instance, to me,
does not offer the same appeal (at all)--it seems much more confining.
Obviously you are a successful author, as well as a well-respected
player. Keep up the good work!

Bill

Robert Jasiek

2015-12-13 05:01:33 UTC

Post by Bill
one can approach Go as something of a scientist or as something of
an artist

I am not convinced that the artist approach works. To some extent,
strong players share the same kind of knowledge (regardless whether
their thinking is conscious, subconscious or a mixture of both and
whether they can express their knowledge explicitly, but from their
moves it is apparent that also the subconscious players apply the same
kind of knowledge), the same kind of tactical reading and analyse the
same kind of objects when making positional judgements (although their
preferred methods of analysis might differ). All this "art" or
"intuition" talk is nothing but a bad excuse for a failure to express
knowledge so that others could verify and mimic it easily. Moves
described as "one's best guess" are not arbitrary expressions of art
but well balanced when being in between black and white influence
stones and having good potential for life. Other examples of failures
to express knowledge clearly are "natural flow of the game [like
water]" (when the meaning is: "always playing the currently most
valuable moves in the global context") and "beauty of shapes" (when
their meaning is given by degrees of connection, life, development
potential, efficiency in the dynamic formation).

Science explains art! (Ok, will explain...)

Bill

2015-12-29 01:38:27 UTC

Post by Bill
one can approach Go as something of a scientist or as something of
an artist

It would probably be an interesting problem to understand how are brains
"see" or synthesize a Go board (one with stone's on it! : ) ) . Since
most of us can't keep track of more than 7 things, if it weren't for the
patterns that the stones make, we would be in trouble (think of trying
to recall a board with all randomly placed stones that didn't form a
pattern, if this is possible). Of course it would obviously be the same
board if you memorized it upsize down or flipped-over, right? There are
2 good mental-exercise problems for one's brain! ; ) I'm not going to
draw a conclusion, because I don't have one, but I think it's an
important/interesting problem from the perspective of AI, or even from
the perspective of having the human condition. I think that the "flight"
from logic-to-art and back again, may be part of what keeps people
playing. I don't think many people enjoy hours of pure analytical logic
for it's own sake, so that's not Go's "selling point"! I mainly enjoy
applying logic from the perspective of solving problems. Just the
activity of trying to consider a simple Go position while lying in bed
can be an "amusing" exercise (I especially found that true the first
time). I was amazed at how poorly I understood the simple board! :)
The context (or goal?) motivates us to tolerate the "work" of dealing
with pure logic. Maybe I should start my own column (oops,
"blog"?--gotta get with the times!)

Bill

Rainer Rosenthal

2015-12-29 19:14:07 UTC

Post by Bill
It would probably be an interesting problem to understand how are brains
"see" or synthesize a Go board (one with stone's on it! : ) ) ...
I think it's an important/interesting problem from the perspective of AI,

Well, funny things happen these days: Google and Facebook are pushing
their AI research and are ambitious enough to use Go as a measure
for improvement.

They dream of some multi-purpose brain-program, which should do
intelligent things by learning. Using the very new DCNN technique, they
teach their brain-program with thousands of professional games in order
to let it know, how "good games" should look like.
Here DCNN = "Deep Convolutional Neuronal Networks" is the amended
version of the good old "Neuronal Networks".

The Facebook version playes already under the name "darkforest" or
"darkfores2" and the like on KGS in the computer room. I couldn't
believe my eyes when I saw the bot playing as a 3d in pure DCNN mode,
i.e. nearly without calculating. Sometimes it lost terribly and
blundered in a way that kyu players could laugh about, but in the long
run it defended its 3d rank very well and in an astonishing way.

These days you can watch the bot darkfmcts2 on KGS, playing as 5d.
It holds this level since 23rd of December until now having played
about 200 games. "MCTS" is short for "Monte Carlo Tree Search", the
method used by modern strong bots like Zen and CrazyStone. The name
suggests that DCNN plus MCTS is used for that strong bot. This keeps
the bot from blundering in the terrible way I told about, making it
2 stones stronger.

The Google rival bot is in the making and rumors have it that it is
even more powerful. There is a very interesting talk by Demis Hassabis,
head of the Google research group, which will be very interesting for
you. It addresses Go only marginally, but it is impressive to see, in
which environment Go will play a not so small role.
See the talk on YouTube here:

I've never heard of Demis Hassabis before - my fault.

Cheers,
Rainer

Robert Jasiek

2015-12-29 20:29:37 UTC

Post by Rainer Rosenthal
Google and Facebook are pushing
their AI research and are ambitious enough to use Go as a measure
for improvement.

Go is a suitable study object for AI research, but abstract search
methods, such as Monte Carlo or Neural Nets, can maybe create strong
virtual players but are weak at explaining thinking. My approach to go
theory and so AI is much more suitable for explaining thinking. Maybe
Google or another big financial player creates 9p playing strength but
only so that we will ask the same as for human 9p: Why are they that
strong. AI should first of all provide explanations.

Post by Rainer Rosenthal
Deep Convolutional Neuronal Networks

What does "deep convolutional" mean for neural nets?

Rainer Rosenthal

2015-12-29 23:03:52 UTC

Post by Rainer Rosenthal
Google and Facebook are pushing
their AI research and are ambitious enough to use Go as a measure
for improvement.

The most interesting thing is that they are not at all interested
in Go, but they want to create an all-purpose-intelligence-thing
(APIT, (C) Rosenthal). They just want to make sure that their APIT is
clever enough to play Go on a professional level ... if it wants to.

At least this is what I understood from Demis Hassabis' talk, I mentioned:
http://youtu.be/0X-NdPtFKq0

So their goal is far far more ambitious than just producing very good
programs for different tasks (like playing Go). They want to produce
one program that is able to do any task well!

We as Go players (if I am allowed to count me as one) have the opportunity
to see researchers and rich companies cope with the difficulties of
our beloved game. We already see astonishing bots like darkfmcts2 who
are by no means Go-bots but multi-purpose-bots or APITs (see above).

Post by Robert Jasiek
only so that we will ask the same as for human 9p: Why are they that
strong. AI should first of all provide explanations.

AI will do whatever it wants whenever it is completed.
Here is an anticipated dialog from the year 2037:

Robert: "Hey, AI, you should provide explanations!"
AI: "Why?"

Post by Rainer Rosenthal
Deep Convolutional Neuronal Networks

What does "deep convolutional" mean for neural nets?

Don't know. For me it's just a name that I reported from what I read,
but you may like to read more about it in the German Wikipedia article
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convolutional_Neural_Network

or more directly: Krizhevsky, A.; Sutskever, I.; Hinton, G. E. (2012).
"Imagenet classification with deep convolutional neural networks".
Advances in Neural Information Processing Systems 1: 1097–1105.
(From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convolutional_neural_network)

Cheers,
Rainer

Robert Jasiek

2015-12-30 07:08:40 UTC

They want to produce one program that is able to do any task well!

The problem is that doing any task well in such a manner involves
errors. It may solve problems with a great likelihood, but if it makes
an error, it might not notice and might not have an explanation. Like
a human being of whom we only know input of the task and output of
some answer pretended to be the solution.

Bill

2015-12-30 00:44:43 UTC

Post by Robert Jasiek
AI should first of all provide explanations.

Probably you are aware of this, but that's not how a "neural network"
(alone) works, I think you are suggesting a new possible research
direction for AI.
However, that's not to say that someone or something couldn't sift
through the
computer output, and try to create heuristics. If fact, if would be
interesting to put each heuristic
to the test, creating test games to play against DarkForest (sp), to
help validate them and weigh them against each other. That is still
short of Theorems on Go, but I'm sure someone is writing some down
(perhaps you?) The life and death truths for 3-cell, 4-cell, 5-cell
eyes are simple examples of what I would call "Theorems" concerning Go.

Cheers,
Bill

Robert Jasiek

2015-12-30 07:11:50 UTC

Post by Bill
Theorems on Go, but I'm sure someone is writing some down
(perhaps you?)

Yes, I have created and proved propositions.

Bill

2015-12-31 04:31:15 UTC

Post by Bill
Theorems on Go, but I'm sure someone is writing some down
(perhaps you?)

Yes, I have created and proved propositions.

I would consider alot of the truths provided on Sensei's Library to be
"propositions". If the truths could be consolidated, I think that
would be of interest. The current "business" side of Go literature on Go
seems to be moving in the opposite direction. As an example, you are on
your 12th book, I think, and still writing. In comparison, a lot of
Calculus is included between the covers of even 1 traditional book on
Calculus. Add 2 books on linear algebra, a book on abstract algebra, and
a book on finite math, and were still only up to 5 books. It may well be
fair to say that these don't teach Go as well, but the emphasis towards
book-learning in Go seems to so closely parallel that of learning math,
that I can't help but make the comparison. Maybe most popular books on
Go are like books on art (on drawing, for instance)? A joseki
dictionary is of course something else entirely. Admittedly, these
comments were created by someone with a limited background (me), but
perhaps they will further discussion.

Cheers,
Bill

Robert Jasiek

2015-12-31 07:23:31 UTC

Post by Bill
I would consider alot of the truths provided on Sensei's Library to be
"propositions".

This kind of thing I mean when speaking of propositions:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?CycleLaw
http://senseis.xmp.net/?PrisonerCountingForStoneScoring

Usually, such precision is inapplicable for go players, with the
exceptions mentioned below.

Post by Bill
you are on your 12th book, I think, and still writing. In comparison, a lot of
Calculus is included between the covers of even 1 traditional book on
Calculus.

The most maths-orientated contents in my books is the New Semeai
Formula in Capturing Races 1, the Unsettled Group Average in Joseki 2
(and applied in Positional Judgement 2) and a few other formulas in a
few of my other books.

Among the English go book authors, I am the one relying the most on
"principles", which are like 67% to 100% truths. (Such as "defend your
weak important groups.") Although most principles are ambiguous to
some extent, they often are more useful for go players than
propositions because one does not need exact presuppositions (such as
"unless an exchange and sacrifice is possible" and "non-essential
stones can be sacrificed if necessary" reformulated as algebra and
logic).

Post by Bill
the emphasis towards
book-learning in Go seems to so closely parallel that of learning math,

Learning-friendly maths, if you like:)

Post by Bill
most popular books on Go are like books on art

Popularity of books is given mainly by earlier year of appearance (for
greater chance of wider distribution) and better distribution
channels. Only then comes popularity of contents, and the most popular
books by contents also are popular because they teach so little that
their reading is easy (e.g., Lessons in the Fundamentals).

Art? Rather not. Entertainment - maybe.

Bill

2015-12-31 08:52:10 UTC

Post by Bill
most popular books on Go are like books on art

Art? Rather not. Entertainment - maybe.

"Craft" may be a better word for me to use than art (I probably
suggested drawing books as examples since I've read a number of them).
I could draw reasonably-well before I read any such books, since I
practiced alot in my youth, but reading made me "smarter" about it. I
suspect you would agree that even an aspiring Go-player who is not
willing to "play" and experiment, like an artist might, will not get
very far. One has to be "brave" too (in each of these areas, as well as
in math)! It seems unfortunate to me that an entertaining book will
probably get better reviews and sell more copies, at least at the
beginning level. Are you intending to get your books on Amazon?

Bill

Robert Jasiek

2015-12-31 12:02:07 UTC

Post by Bill
Are you intending to get your books on Amazon?

Yes, but it could take a few years before I find time for this. ATM,
writing the next book has higher priority.

Bill

2016-01-02 06:49:46 UTC

Post by Bill
Are you intending to get your books on Amazon?

Yes, but it could take a few years before I find time for this. ATM,
writing the next book has higher priority.

Robert,
While I was looking at Go resources, I noticed some "problem books" in
the form of software.
We were just talking here about the "entertainment factor" of popular
books too. Consider the entertainment factor of popular software; I
think that there might be an opportunity in there for you. Good
graphics could really enliven "Life & Death" for the masses! : )

BTW, are there programs offering any better user-interface than CGoban
(not that I have any problems with it)?

Bill

Robert Jasiek

2016-01-02 07:49:48 UTC

Post by Bill
are there programs offering any better user-interface than CGoban

If you do not mind installing Java Runtime Environment, the best go
diagram editor is GoWrite. Forget CGoban as a viewer; it is very
limited.

Bill

2016-01-02 11:09:43 UTC

Post by Bill
are there programs offering any better user-interface than CGoban

If you do not mind installing Java Runtime Environment, the best go
diagram editor is GoWrite. Forget CGoban as a viewer; it is very
limited.

Actually, I am using CGoban3. It is a stripped down version of CGoban
that runs under Java. My purpose for having it was to access KGS, but
I've been working some Go problems on it too. I have recently been
doing problems from "Cho Chikuns Encyclopedia of Life and Death". I'm
only on the second page (12 problems per page) and some of the problems
have over 15 steps. If I can't grasp the solution with full confidence,
then I convert it to a sgf file and play with it a little... If GoWrite
is a better editor, as you suggest, it may speed this up. Java is my
2nd favorite programming language.

Bill

Bill

2016-01-02 11:16:35 UTC

but I've been working some Go problems on it too. I have recently
been doing problems from "Cho Chikuns Encyclopedia of Life and Death".

I just noticed that there are 5 levels of problems in the full
"encyclopedia". I started at level 2 ("elementary problems"), which has
900 problems. Maybe I should just work every-other one so I can get
to the "intermediate problems" sooner? (I'm laughing!)

Bill

Bill

2016-01-14 13:52:51 UTC

but I've been working some Go problems on it too. I have recently
been doing problems from "Cho Chikuns Encyclopedia of Life and Death".

I just noticed that there are 5 levels of problems in the full
"encyclopedia". I started at level 2 ("elementary problems"), which
has 900 problems. Maybe I should just work every-other one so I can
get to the "intermediate problems" sooner? (I'm laughing!)

Onto page 3 (Problem #21)... Some of the problems were "slicker" than I
might have imagined they would be. KOs started showing up. On the other
hand, in reviewing one of my games (I think I enjoy that as much as
playing), I noticed where I could have saved a group and won the close
game, if only I had possessed the faith to be a little clever... (I was
cornered, and had a 50/50 shot at it). So past games are a pretty good
source of L & D problems too. I don't think the L & D problems are a
substitute for playing the game, but I find them sort of soothing. Even
though I "know better", twice today I got myself into trouble ending up
with groups with 2x2 boxes for eyes, though of course that wasn't the
goal...

Bill

Bill

2016-01-13 06:47:55 UTC

Post by Robert Jasiek
If you do not mind installing Java Runtime Environment, the best go
diagram editor is GoWrite. Forget CGoban as a viewer; it is very limited.

I just installed it, it seems pretty cool. I can imagine solving
problems on it, but there appears to be other more appropriate software
for that (but i don't have any yet). Progress on my game continues.

Bill

Robert Jasiek

2016-01-13 09:19:58 UTC

Post by Bill
I just installed it, it seems pretty cool. I can imagine solving
problems on it, but there appears to be other more appropriate software
for that (but i don't have any yet). Progress on my game continues.

Nice! :)

Bill

2016-01-13 11:38:31 UTC

Nice! :)

I've "solved" a few problems on it now. Do you know of any software
that will solve Life and Death problems, so I can be confident I didn't
miss anything? How "formal" do you get with solutions? Do you make a
tree? I'm currently working on Problem #18 from Cho Chikuns
Encyclopedia of Life and Death--elementary problems. I think I got it,
but I'm not truly satisfied yet (I've never read anywhere exactly what
you're supposed to DO for these problems...). Here it is, in case anyone
is interested. It's Black's turn.

Cheers,
Bill

(;SZ[9]GM[1]CA[UTF-8]FF[4]ST[2]AP[GOWrite:2.3.48]RU[Japanese]FG[259:]PM[2]PB[
]GN[ ]PW[ ]KM[0.00]
;B[bc]
;W[ac]
;B[bd]
;W[bb]
;B[be]
;W[cb]
;B[cd]
;W[cc]
;B[dc]
;W[db]
;B[ec]
;W[eb]
;B[fb]
;W[tt]
;B[gc]
;W[ea]
;B[de]
;W[tt]
;B[fa]
;W[tt]
)

Robert Jasiek

2016-01-13 15:38:54 UTC

Post by Bill
Do you know of any software
that will solve Life and Death problems,

IIRC, Thomas Wolfe's GoTools (?) does it. Maybe also other programs
but I do not recall which.

Post by Bill
so I can be confident I didn't miss anything?

Alternative: read books whose problem answers show all relevant
variations (correct or wrong) AND the related decision-making.
However, the only book that really does this is Tactical Reading, and
its problems are above your level. So your idea of using software for
checking your reading is not too bad.

Post by Bill
How "formal" do you get with solutions?

Me personally? It depends for which purpose I study problems. For
research, I sometimes am formal up to proving mathematical
propositions. As a player, it is sufficient if I am reasonably
convinced that the solution (state, variations, decisions) must be
correct but my guessed likelihood of correctness can still vary
between 50% and 99.99999999%, depending on how difficult a problem is
and how much time I invest.

Post by Bill
Do you make a tree?

When imagining / constructing a solution, a tree view is optional. I
can use a partial view on a tree when I find it helpful. I can also
read without referring to a tree.

Post by Bill
I've never read anywhere exactly what
you're supposed to DO for these problems...

See the book Tactical Reading for an explanation for pure tactical
reading / pure local life and death problems.

Post by Bill
;B[bc]
;W[ac]
;B[bd]
;W[bb]
;B[be]
;W[cb]
;B[cd]
;W[cc]
;B[dc]
;W[db]
;B[ec]
;W[eb]
;B[fb]
;W[tt]
;B[gc]
;W[ea]
;B[de]
;W[tt]
;B[fa]
;W[tt]

Not looking at the positions but only at this SGF extract, it is
exactly one move-sequence. Unless the problem is very simple, usually
a solution must contain several variations and their relation to
decision-making.

Bill

2016-01-13 22:54:02 UTC

;B[bc] ...

Bill

2016-01-13 23:17:54 UTC

Post by Robert Jasiek
Not looking at the positions but only at this SGF extract, it is
exactly one move-sequence. Unless the problem is very simple, usually
a solution must contain several variations and their relation to
decision-making.

Looking at the problem again today, it appears that Black playing at B-9
is really "the", or at least one, solution, because it seems to prevent
White from making 2 eyes. What I am missing is a proposition for the
latter part of this. Do you have a "proposition" that completes the
solution to this example?

Bill

Bill

2016-01-14 02:42:55 UTC

Looking at the problem again today, it appears that Black playing at
B-9 is really "the", or at least one, solution, because it seems to
prevent White from making 2 eyes. What I am missing is a proposition
for the latter part of this. Do you have a "proposition" that
completes the solution to this example?
Bill

I noticed if White plays first, then White is alive (so the status of
the group is "unsettled"). We can call that Problem 18b ; )

Although, some knowledge of these problems (and even more basic ones,
really) is handy, I don't think they are the heart of the loveliest part
of the game, which I think has to do with "developing potential" (aji?).

In my field, "obviousness is the enemy of correctness". That's a
difficult lesson to teach.

I'll go back and look at the first 17 problems again, and see if I
learned anything! : )

Bill

Bill

2016-01-14 05:16:49 UTC

Here's a problem I couldn't do without putting it on my sgf editor.
Let's see if we agree on the number of different "first moves" that B
can make to kill W!
( I've already written down my answer on a piece of paper!)

web.newsguy.com/MySite/Problem19.gif

Bill

Robert Jasiek

2016-01-14 06:59:04 UTC

Here's a problem [...]
web.newsguy.com/MySite/Problem19.gif

Although SGF or links are possible, they are not the best way to show
diagrams here, because this newsgroup is text based. For me, SGF here
means that I need to copy, paste, save, log out, login with my
non-internet user, view, log out, log in with my internet user, reply
because I do not allow GoWrite to share access with internet programs.
So I look into SGFs only when it really interests me.

Please try to make reading diagrams for us as easy as possible. When
you post a link, put http:// in front of the web address so that
clicking on it works. Diagrams you can represent as ASCII. Configure
your newsreader to show a fixed width font.

. . . . . . . .
. . # . . . . .
. # O # . . . .
. O . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .

Black to move

. . . . . . . .
. . # . . . . .
. # O # . . . .
. O 1 . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .

Answer

. . . . . . . .
. . # . . . . .
. # . # . . . .
. O # . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .

Result

GoWrite can export ASCII diagrams with good formatting, if you
configure it for this. IIRC, it can even add edges and hoshis. IMO, #
is easier to read than X for a Black stone. Horizontally, leave a
space between every two intersections.

Bill

2016-01-14 13:22:15 UTC

Post by Robert Jasiek
I do not allow GoWrite to share access with internet programs.

Have you seen or heard of any reasons not to trust GoWrite?
For instance, do you know if it connects to the Internet?

Robert Jasiek

2016-01-14 15:00:38 UTC

Post by Bill
Have you seen or heard of any reasons not to trust GoWrite?

No.

But GoWrite uses JavaRuntimeEnvironment, which is known to have
security risks. The JRE GoWrite uses is a different JRE than used by
CGoban. Therefore, I put both JREs in different security contexts by
(de)activation of network hardware, user accounts, user access rights,
integrity levels and software restriction policies.

My security is defensive! Trust plays only a secondary role. The major
means are prohibitions.

Post by Bill
For instance, do you know if it connects to the Internet?

I do not know because I do not allow it to connect to the internet if
it should try:) I also block the JRE for GoWrite; this instance of JRE
may not access the internet.

Detlef Müller

2016-01-16 20:08:42 UTC

Am 13.01.2016 um 12:38 schrieb Bill:

[...]

Post by Bill
I've "solved" a few problems on it now. Do you know of any software
that will solve Life and Death problems, so I can be confident I didn't
miss anything? How "formal" do you get with solutions? Do you make a
tree? I'm currently working on Problem #18 from Cho Chikun’s
Encyclopedia of Life and Death--elementary problems. I think I got it,
but I'm not truly satisfied yet (I've never read anywhere exactly what
you're supposed to DO for these problems...). Here it is, in case anyone
is interested. It's Black's turn.

[...]

Post by Bill
(;SZ[9]GM[1]CA[UTF-8]FF[4]ST[2]AP[GOWrite:2.3.48]RU[Japanese]FG[259:]PM[2]PB[
]GN[ ]PW[ ]KM[0.00]
;B[bc]

[...]

Just testing the fresh installation of GoWrite (using debian linux), the
final Position is:

+----------------
| . . . . O # . .
| a O O O O # . .
| O # O # # . # .
| . # # , . . . .
| . # . # . . . .
| . . . . . . . .

(wow - copy as ASCII and paste here works - I replaced a free
Space with "a" as a Label)

Well - white connecting at "a" leads to a living form
(4 in a row).

So any killing Move has to be "a" or one of the 4 other
inner points.

Imo two of the moves are killing and three dont.

Detlef

Bill

2016-01-17 03:43:32 UTC

Post by Detlef MÃ¼ller
[...]

[...]

(;SZ[9]GM[1]CA[UTF-8]FF[4]ST[2]AP[GOWrite:2.3.48]RU[Japanese]FG[259:]PM[2]PB[
]GN[ ]PW[ ]KM[0.00]
;B[bc]

[...]
Just testing the fresh installation of GoWrite (using debian linux),
+----------------
| . . . . O # . .
| a O O O O # . .
| O # O # # . # .
| . # # , . . . .
| . # . # . . . .
| . . . . . . . .
(wow - copy as ASCII and paste here works - I replaced a free
Space with "a" as a Label)
Well - white connecting at "a" leads to a living form
(4 in a row).
So any killing Move has to be "a" or one of the 4 other
inner points.
Imo two of the moves are killing and three dont.
Detlef

Thank you. I will investigate further! : )

Bill

Bill

2016-01-17 04:13:07 UTC

Post by Detlef MÃ¼ller
[...]

[...]

(;SZ[9]GM[1]CA[UTF-8]FF[4]ST[2]AP[GOWrite:2.3.48]RU[Japanese]FG[259:]PM[2]PB[
]GN[ ]PW[ ]KM[0.00]
;B[bc]

Thank you. I will investigate further! : )
Bill

A8 and C9 are the (first) killing moves, huh?
I'm up to problem 32. I've done those on the
first page 3 times, to make sure I'm learning something.
Cho Chikun’s Encyclopedia of Life and Death is a good source of problems.

Bill

Robert Jasiek

2016-01-17 05:26:29 UTC

Cho Chikuns Encyclopedia of Life and Death is a good source of problems.

But beware that the answers are a weak source for learning how to
solve problems.

Bill

2016-01-17 06:07:07 UTC

Cho Chikuns Encyclopedia of Life and Death is a good source of problems.

But beware that the answers are a weak source for learning how to
solve problems.

I don't have any of the answers until I solve them. The "free versions"
of the volumes don't come with the answers. What form are the answers
in? As first moves? My current system leaves no artifacts to review
except a check mark after I've solved a problem, which seems rather a
shame.
I guess this is part of the reason the game remains largely "unsolved".
So far as I know, no one can prove that they know the best opening move,
or if there even is one...

Bill

Bill

2016-01-17 06:19:30 UTC

Cho Chikuns Encyclopedia of Life and Death is a good source of problems.

But beware that the answers are a weak source for learning how to
solve problems.

What do you consider the best way?

Bill

2015-12-30 02:32:09 UTC

Post by Rainer Rosenthal
The Google rival bot is in the making and rumors have it that it is
even more powerful. There is a very interesting talk by Demis Hassabis,
head of the Google research group, which will be very interesting for
you. It addresses Go only marginally, but it is impressive to see, in
which environment Go will play a not so small role.
http://youtu.be/0X-NdPtFKq0

I found it a quite interesting video, well articulated.
The example given for the game "Breakout", where the computer, and
subsequently the observer, learns that its advantageous "to shoot to the
top of the screen" is a very simple (trivial) example of the sort of
feedback that Robert is seeking. Interest in AI started in the 1960's,
and progress has was "slower than expected" for a several decades. It
is even more fun now to watch the race/challenge as there are more
success stories along with accelerated interest. I have concerns about
ethics and privacy, but not new ones (just that we individuals might be
even more "targeted" by corporations, who would sell us either products
or "propaganda"). But, as pointed out, that is not a facet that the
scientists working on the technology concern themselves with--and if
they were being completely forthright, they might reveal the most-likely
goals in the minds of those who provide their funding (but I think we
can guess much of this ourselves...).

Bill

Adrian Petrescu

2016-01-14 22:36:54 UTC

Post by Bill
I am actually interested in go from the computational aspect too
(neural networks, search, etc.). About 15 years ago I wrote a
backgammon program as a course project that had a neural-network
approach (which worked "okay" considering it only learned by trial and
error). I took some satisfaction in the fact that it learned to like
to "hit" on its own.. : ) I enjoy watching the AI people trying to
grapple with the problem of playing Go. I did some reading on it the
other day, a thesis from about 2008, because I was curious about the
data structures that they found relevant (I think binary tree is
fundamental, with the difficulty left of finding a good evaluation
function). I assume progress is being made on this every day.
Bill

If that's your thing, you should check out the Computer-Go Mailing
List: http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go. Computer go
is experiencing somewhat of a renaissance now (for the last ~3 years),
and that list is the hub where most of the important figures go.
Reading through the archive should satisfy your curiosity.

Cheers,
Adrian

Bill

2016-01-15 00:30:55 UTC

Post by Adrian Petrescu

Post by Bill
I am actually interested in go from the computational aspect too
(neural networks, search, etc.). About 15 years ago I wrote a
backgammon program as a course project that had a neural-network
approach (which worked "okay" considering it only learned by trial
and error). I took some satisfaction in the fact that it learned to
like to "hit" on its own.. : ) I enjoy watching the AI people
trying to grapple with the problem of playing Go. I did some reading
on it the other day, a thesis from about 2008, because I was curious
about the data structures that they found relevant (I think binary
tree is fundamental, with the difficulty left of finding a good
evaluation function). I assume progress is being made on this every
day.
Bill

Thank you. I'm now on the list!

Bill

Bill

2015-12-15 13:02:47 UTC

Is there an academic field that you identify with which might give me some perspective on your
books/teaching?

This post is aimed at anyone who is interested in it.

It occurred to me, while I wasn't even thinking about it, that the most
efficient way to surround territory could be a 19 point row across the
center of the board (not diagonally). At which point, our player could
be said to surround 381-19 = 362 points. However, if your opponent
doesn't resign after you proudly point out your accomplishment, it,
admittedly, may be hard to protect it all... Even if your opponent makes
the row adjacent to yours, you end up 19 points ahead (although, you
can't necessarily count them until the end of the game).

Maybe it would be advantageous if the row made was not on the center? A
row containing all of the points on "C", or even more so "B", say, would
make it easier to make eyes. My main strategy against Igowin, which
works a bit, is to try to take possession of a half (or more) of the
board with the least number of pieces in it, since it contains more points.

Anyway, this might be a starting point to further discussion.

By the way, "Lessons on the Fundamentals", pp. 24-25, is the most
humorous writing on Go that I have seen yet (it ends with, "... but the
way you play is so asinine that it makes your opponents light-headed,
that's all.")

Bill

Robert Jasiek

2015-12-15 13:23:21 UTC

Post by Bill
surround territory could be a 19 point row across the
center of the board (not diagonally)

It is an open question whether the opponent can invade and live (on
3-3) after the opponent surrounds a quarter with stones on the 10th
lines.

Bill

2015-12-15 16:51:37 UTC

Post by Robert Jasiek
It is an open question whether the opponent can invade and live (on
3-3) after the opponent surrounds a quarter with stones on the 10th
lines.

Does that imply that, under thosecircumstances, against a decent player,
that would be generally only be to the opponent's detriment for her to
try to make any territory in that quarter (that is, she'll likely give
up even more than 81 there, by trying?)

Bill

Robert Jasiek

2015-12-15 17:13:27 UTC

Post by Bill
Does that imply that, under thosecircumstances, against a decent player,
that would be generally only be to the opponent's detriment for her to
try to make any territory in that quarter (that is, she'll likely give
up even more than 81 there, by trying?)

Not sure I understand your question. Is the wall of the player or the
opponent? Which of them tries to make territory? I'd say: both...!

Bill

2015-12-15 18:32:41 UTC

Not sure I understand your question.

Let me rephrase the question with another example. Assume that you have
made all of row 9, and I have made all of row 11, and we share row 10 in
a completely nonmaterial way (disregard it).

Should black pass on his next play (followed by white doing likewise)?

Bill

Post by Robert Jasiek
Is the wall of the player or the
opponent? Which of them tries to make territory? I'd say: both...!

Robert Jasiek

2015-12-15 19:07:50 UTC

Post by Bill
Assume that you have
made all of row 9, and I have made all of row 11, and we share row 10 in
a completely nonmaterial way (disregard it).
Should black pass on his next play (followed by white doing likewise)?

Black must overcome any komi, avoid mirror go and live bigger inside
White's region than White lives inside Black's, and the conceivable
means is a long cycle to be constructed so that the mirror is broken
by the ko rule(s). See my old message Winning Strategy for Taiwanese
Professionals.

Bernhard Kraft

2015-12-09 10:27:36 UTC

Post by Bill
What books or other guidance would
you recommend to me to help me along my path?

"Basic Techniques of Go" for studying and "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" for finding new subjects for studies.

http://www.kiseido.com/Begin2.htm#K02

Bill

2015-12-09 12:45:17 UTC

Post by Bernhard Kraft

Post by Bill
What books or other guidance would
you recommend to me to help me along my path?

"Basic Techniques of Go" for studying and "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" for finding new subjects for studies.
http://www.kiseido.com/Begin2.htm#K02

Thank you for the suggestions!

Bill

Rainer Rosenthal

2015-12-14 12:07:57 UTC

Hi Bill,

you may like the wonderful Go comic by Colette Bezio: Aji's Quest.
http://home.earthlink.net/~inkwolf/Inkwolf/Ajis_Quest.html

She about 11-th kyu she told me once, but she illustrated problems
like the one you talked about with her dan-humour:
"and stick with my 2-6 bit "problem at hand" while my opponent is
staking claims all over the board..."

Cheers,
Rainer (7k)

Bill

2015-12-14 15:33:19 UTC

Post by Rainer Rosenthal
Hi Bill,
you may like the wonderful Go comic by Colette Bezio: Aji's Quest.
http://home.earthlink.net/~inkwolf/Inkwolf/Ajis_Quest.html

I only read a small fraction of them, but I'd said she's nailed it! : )

Thanks!
Bill

Post by Rainer Rosenthal
She about 11-th kyu she told me once, but she illustrated problems
"and stick with my 2-6 bit "problem at hand" while my opponent is
staking claims all over the board..."
Cheers,
Rainer (7k)

Bill

2015-12-17 15:40:13 UTC

I was playing the MFOG-15k, and "I owned" the upper-right corner--I had
it completely connected containing many eyes. The "scoring estimator"
assigned the territory to me (even at the end of the game), but at the
end of the game, the program would not give it to me, even when I check
that they "were not dead" (owned by white). The program said we had a
disagreement about who owned them and to contact the author. I have
the sgf file. Is it common for this program to make these sort of errors?

Bill

Robert Jasiek

2015-12-17 16:21:26 UTC

Paste the SGF file here.

Bill

2015-12-17 19:02:29 UTC

Post by Robert Jasiek
Paste the SGF file here.

Here it is (copied from Notepad). Thanks for looking!

(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.50]TM[0]OT[9x30 byo-yomi]
PW[mfgo15kyu0]PB[xxxxx]DT[2015-12-17]PC[The KGS Go Server at
http://www.gokgs.com/]C[mfgo15kyu0 [-\]: GTP Engine for mfgo15kyu0
(white): Many Faces of Go version 12 (2002, 2008, 2010 world champion),
playing at level 15 kyu. Uses Many Faces' knowledge combined with Monte
Carlo evaluation. Free evaluation download at www.smart-games.com.
iPhone/iPod Igowin app has this full engine.
]RE[W+Time]
;B[pp]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[eq]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[pd]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[cc]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[eb]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[qf]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[md]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[jq]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[lp]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[qn]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[rp]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[pj]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[re]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[kc]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[mc]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[dj]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[he]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[cf]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ee]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[eg]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[mf]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ro]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[qp]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[pl]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ce]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[dn]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[de]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[df]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ef]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[dh]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ei]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[di]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[fk]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[fh]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[fi]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[hg]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[gf]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[hp]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[io]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[gg]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[fg]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ff]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[fe]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ke]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[le]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[if]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[kd]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[jd]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ld]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[jc]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[je]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[jf]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[kf]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[kg]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[lg]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[kh]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ie]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[rf]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[qe]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[pf]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[pe]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[oe]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[od]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[gi]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[gj]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[hj]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[hi]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ij]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[gh]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[hh]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ej]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ii]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[gi]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[hc]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ic]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ib]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[id]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ip]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[jo]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[hk]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[gk]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[hf]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ge]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[fg]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[be]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[bf]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[af]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ag]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ae]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[bh]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[dk]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ck]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[el]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[fn]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[dl]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[cl]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[fl]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[hl]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[em]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[en]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[dm]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[cm]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[gn]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[gl]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[fm]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[gm]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[hn]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[go]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ho]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[fp]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ch]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ci]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[cj]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[bj]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[lb]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[of]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ne]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[lh]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[mg]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ph]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[nh]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[se]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[sd]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[sf]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[rd]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[nf]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[me]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ln]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[lo]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[mn]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[kn]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[km]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[jm]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[jl]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[nn]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[im]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[in]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[jn]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ko]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[np]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[no]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[mo]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[mp]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[nq]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[op]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[mq]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[lq]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[lr]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[oq]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[mr]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[or]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[kr]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[nr]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[pn]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ns]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ll]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[oo]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[nm]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[nk]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[nj]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ok]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[pk]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ol]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[om]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[mm]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[lm]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ml]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[oi]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[qm]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ql]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[mj]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ni]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[lk]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[kk]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[lj]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[mh]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[mi]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ng]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[kj]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[eh]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[jj]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[sp]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[jk]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[sr]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[rq]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[rr]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[qr]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ps]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[sn]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[so]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[pr]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[sq]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[qs]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[rs]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[qo]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[rm]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[sl]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[sm]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[rl]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[rn]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[kb]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[kl]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[gb]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ec]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[dd]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[fc]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[gc]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[fb]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[hb]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[fa]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[hd]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ga]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ia]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[dc]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[jb]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[jm]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[lc]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[fd]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ha]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[on]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[gd]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ms]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[jp]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[kq]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[ir]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[po]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[jh]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[bn]WL[30]OW[9]
(;B[ja]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[jc]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[nd]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[]WL[30]OW[9]
(;B[qc]BL[30]OB[7]
;W[]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[nb]BL[30]OB[7]
;W[]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[oc]BL[30]OB[7]
;W[]WL[30]OW[9]
(;B[pb]BL[30]OB[7]
;W[]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[la]BL[30]OB[7]
;W[]WL[30]OW[9]
(;B[lf]BL[30]OB[7]
;W[]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ke]BL[30]OB[7]
;W[]WL[30]OW[9]
(;B[qb]BL[30]OB[6]
;W[]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[oa]BL[30]OB[6]
;W[]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ma]BL[30]OB[6]
;W[]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[rc]BL[30]OB[6]
;W[]WL[30]OW[9]
(;B[pa]BL[30]OB[6]
;W[]WL[30]OW[9]
(;B[sa]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[sb]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[rb]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[ra]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[sc]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[]WL[30]OW[9]
(;B[qa]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[sa]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[]BL[30]OB[5]TW[aa][ba][ca][da][ea][ha][ia][ja][ka][la][ma][na][oa][pa][qa][ra][sa][ab][bb][cb][db][eb][gb][hb][ib][jb][kb][lb][mb][nb][ob][pb][qb][rb][sb][ac][bc][gc][hc][ic][jc][kc][lc][mc][nc][oc][pc][qc][rc][sc][ad][bd][cd][dd][ed][gd][hd][id][jd][kd][ld][md][nd][od][pd][qd][rd][sd][ae][be][ce][de][ee][fe][ge][he][ie][je][ke][le][me][ne][pe][qe][re][af][ef][gf][kf][lf][mf][bg][cg][dg][ig][jg][lg][mg][og][pg][qg][rg][sg][ah][ch][ih][nh][oh][qh][rh][sh][ai][bi][ji][ki][li][mi][pi][qi][ri][si][aj][cj][jj][kj][lj][mj][oj][qj][rj][sj][ak][bk][ik][jk][lk][mk][nk][ok][qk][rk][sk][al][bl][il][ml][nl][ol][rl][sl][am][bm][hm][mm][pm][qm][an][cn][gn][hn][in][kn][sn][ao][bo][co][do][eo][fo][ho][io][jo][ko][lo][ap][bp][cp][dp][ep][gp][jp][kp][lp][mp][aq][bq][cq][dq][fq][gq][hq][iq][lq][ar][br][cr][dr][er][fr][gr][hr][jr][as][bs][cs][ds][es][fs][gs][hs][is][js][ks][ls][ss]TB[fj][ek][pq][qq][os][ps]C[mfgo15kyu0
[-\]: You and the engine seem to disagree about which stones are dead.
Sorry, this cannot be solved. You must either accept the engine's
choices or adjourn the game. If you think the engine is incorrect, then
please contact its author.
])
(;B[]BL[30]OB[5]TW[aa][ba][ca][da][ea][ha][ia][ja][ka][la][ma][na][oa][pa][qa][ra][sa][ab][bb][cb][db][eb][gb][hb][ib][jb][kb][lb][mb][nb][ob][pb][qb][rb][sb][ac][bc][gc][hc][ic][jc][kc][lc][mc][nc][oc][pc][qc][rc][sc][ad][bd][cd][dd][ed][gd][hd][id][jd][kd][ld][md][nd][od][pd][qd][rd][sd][ae][be][ce][de][ee][fe][ge][he][ie][je][ke][le][me][ne][pe][qe][re][af][ef][gf][kf][lf][mf][bg][cg][dg][ig][jg][lg][mg][og][pg][qg][rg][sg][ah][ch][ih][nh][oh][qh][rh][sh][ai][bi][ji][ki][li][mi][pi][qi][ri][si][aj][cj][jj][kj][lj][mj][oj][qj][rj][sj][ak][bk][ik][jk][lk][mk][nk][ok][qk][rk][sk][al][bl][il][ml][nl][ol][rl][sl][am][bm][hm][mm][pm][qm][an][cn][gn][hn][in][kn][sn][ao][bo][co][do][eo][fo][ho][io][jo][ko][lo][ap][bp][cp][dp][ep][gp][jp][kp][lp][mp][aq][bq][cq][dq][fq][gq][hq][iq][lq][ar][br][cr][dr][er][fr][gr][hr][jr][as][bs][cs][ds][es][fs][gs][hs][is][js][ks][ls][ss]TB[fj][ek][pq][qq][os][ps]))
(;B[]BL[30]OB[6]TW[aa][ba][ca][da][ea][ha][ia][ja][ka][la][ma][na][oa][pa][qa][ra][sa][ab][bb][cb][db][eb][gb][hb][ib][jb][kb][lb][mb][nb][ob][pb][qb][rb][sb][ac][bc][gc][hc][ic][jc][kc][lc][mc][nc][oc][pc][qc][rc][sc][ad][bd][cd][dd][ed][gd][hd][id][jd][kd][ld][md][nd][od][pd][qd][rd][sd][ae][be][ce][de][ee][fe][ge][he][ie][je][ke][le][me][ne][pe][qe][re][af][ef][gf][kf][lf][mf][bg][cg][dg][ig][jg][lg][mg][og][pg][qg][rg][sg][ah][ch][ih][nh][oh][qh][rh][sh][ai][bi][ji][ki][li][mi][pi][qi][ri][si][aj][cj][jj][kj][lj][mj][oj][qj][rj][sj][ak][bk][ik][jk][lk][mk][nk][ok][qk][rk][sk][al][bl][il][ml][nl][ol][rl][sl][am][bm][hm][mm][pm][qm][an][cn][gn][hn][in][kn][sn][ao][bo][co][do][eo][fo][ho][io][jo][ko][lo][ap][bp][cp][dp][ep][gp][jp][kp][lp][mp][aq][bq][cq][dq][fq][gq][hq][iq][lq][ar][br][cr][dr][er][fr][gr][hr][jr][as][bs][cs][ds][es][fs][gs][hs][is][js][ks][ls][ss]TB[fj][ek][pq][qq][os][ps]))
(;B[]BL[30]OB[5]TW[aa][ba][ca][da][ea][ha][ia][ja][ka][la][ma][na][oa][pa][qa][ra][sa][ab][bb][cb][db][eb][gb][hb][ib][jb][kb][lb][mb][nb][ob][pb][qb][rb][sb][ac][bc][gc][hc][ic][jc][kc][lc][mc][nc][oc][pc][qc][rc][sc][ad][bd][cd][dd][ed][gd][hd][id][jd][kd][ld][md][nd][od][pd][qd][rd][sd][ae][be][ce][de][ee][fe][ge][he][ie][je][ke][le][me][ne][pe][qe][re][af][ef][gf][kf][lf][mf][bg][cg][dg][ig][jg][lg][mg][og][pg][qg][rg][sg][ah][ch][ih][nh][oh][qh][rh][sh][ai][bi][ji][ki][li][mi][pi][qi][ri][si][aj][cj][jj][kj][lj][mj][oj][qj][rj][sj][ak][bk][ik][jk][lk][mk][nk][ok][qk][rk][sk][al][bl][il][ml][nl][ol][rl][sl][am][bm][hm][mm][pm][qm][an][cn][gn][hn][in][kn][sn][ao][bo][co][do][eo][fo][ho][io][jo][ko][lo][ap][bp][cp][dp][ep][gp][jp][kp][lp][mp][aq][bq][cq][dq][fq][gq][hq][iq][lq][ar][br][cr][dr][er][fr][gr][hr][jr][as][bs][cs][ds][es][fs][gs][hs][is][js][ks][ls][ss]TB[fj][ek][pq][qq][os][ps])
(;B[]BL[30]OB[6]TW[aa][ba][ca][da][ea][ha][ia][ja][ka][la][ma][na][oa][pa][qa][ra][sa][ab][bb][cb][db][eb][gb][hb][ib][jb][kb][lb][mb][nb][ob][pb][qb][rb][sb][ac][bc][gc][hc][ic][jc][kc][lc][mc][nc][oc][pc][qc][rc][sc][ad][bd][cd][dd][ed][gd][hd][id][jd][kd][ld][md][nd][od][pd][qd][rd][sd][ae][be][ce][de][ee][fe][ge][he][ie][je][ke][le][me][ne][pe][qe][re][af][ef][gf][kf][lf][mf][bg][cg][dg][ig][jg][lg][mg][og][pg][qg][rg][sg][ah][ch][ih][nh][oh][qh][rh][sh][ai][bi][ji][ki][li][mi][pi][qi][ri][si][aj][cj][jj][kj][lj][mj][oj][qj][rj][sj][ak][bk][ik][jk][lk][mk][nk][ok][qk][rk][sk][al][bl][il][ml][nl][ol][rl][sl][am][bm][hm][mm][pm][qm][an][cn][gn][hn][in][kn][sn][ao][bo][co][do][eo][fo][ho][io][jo][ko][lo][ap][bp][cp][dp][ep][gp][jp][kp][lp][mp][aq][bq][cq][dq][fq][gq][hq][iq][lq][ar][br][cr][dr][er][fr][gr][hr][jr][as][bs][cs][ds][es][fs][gs][hs][is][js][ks][ls][ss]TB[fj][ek][pq][qq][os][ps]))
(;B[]BL[30]OB[7]TW[aa][ba][ca][da][ea][ha][ia][ja][ka][la][ma][na][oa][pa][qa][ra][sa][ab][bb][cb][db][eb][gb][hb][ib][jb][kb][lb][mb][nb][ob][pb][qb][rb][sb][ac][bc][gc][hc][ic][jc][kc][lc][mc][nc][oc][pc][qc][rc][sc][ad][bd][cd][dd][ed][gd][hd][id][jd][kd][ld][md][nd][od][pd][qd][rd][sd][ae][be][ce][de][ee][fe][ge][he][ie][je][ke][le][me][ne][pe][qe][re][af][ef][gf][kf][lf][mf][bg][cg][dg][ig][jg][lg][mg][og][pg][qg][rg][sg][ah][ch][ih][nh][oh][qh][rh][sh][ai][bi][ji][ki][li][mi][pi][qi][ri][si][aj][cj][jj][kj][lj][mj][oj][qj][rj][sj][ak][bk][ik][jk][lk][mk][nk][ok][qk][rk][sk][al][bl][il][ml][nl][ol][rl][sl][am][bm][hm][mm][pm][qm][an][cn][gn][hn][in][kn][sn][ao][bo][co][do][eo][fo][ho][io][jo][ko][lo][ap][bp][cp][dp][ep][gp][jp][kp][lp][mp][aq][bq][cq][dq][fq][gq][hq][iq][lq][ar][br][cr][dr][er][fr][gr][hr][jr][as][bs][cs][ds][es][fs][gs][hs][is][js][ks][ls][ss]TB[fj][ek][pq][qq][os][ps]))
(;B[]BL[30]OB[7]TW[aa][ba][ca][da][ea][ha][ia][ja][ka][la][ma][na][oa][pa][qa][ra][sa][ab][bb][cb][db][eb][gb][hb][ib][jb][kb][lb][mb][nb][ob][pb][qb][rb][sb][ac][bc][gc][hc][ic][jc][kc][lc][mc][nc][oc][pc][qc][rc][sc][ad][bd][cd][dd][ed][gd][hd][id][jd][kd][ld][md][nd][od][pd][qd][rd][sd][ae][be][ce][de][ee][fe][ge][he][ie][je][ke][le][me][ne][pe][qe][re][af][ef][gf][kf][lf][mf][bg][cg][dg][ig][jg][lg][mg][og][pg][qg][rg][sg][ah][ch][ih][nh][oh][qh][rh][sh][ai][bi][ji][ki][li][mi][pi][qi][ri][si][aj][cj][jj][kj][lj][mj][oj][qj][rj][sj][ak][bk][ik][jk][lk][mk][nk][ok][qk][rk][sk][al][bl][il][ml][nl][ol][rl][sl][am][bm][hm][mm][pm][qm][an][cn][gn][hn][in][kn][sn][ao][bo][co][do][eo][fo][ho][io][jo][ko][lo][ap][bp][cp][dp][ep][gp][jp][kp][lp][mp][aq][bq][cq][dq][fq][gq][hq][iq][lq][ar][br][cr][dr][er][fr][gr][hr][jr][as][bs][cs][ds][es][fs][gs][hs][is][js][ks][ls][ss]TB[fj][ek][pq][qq][os][ps]))
(;B[]BL[30]OB[7]TW[aa][ba][ca][da][ea][ha][ia][ja][ka][la][ma][na][oa][pa][qa][ra][sa][ab][bb][cb][db][eb][gb][hb][ib][jb][kb][lb][mb][nb][ob][pb][qb][rb][sb][ac][bc][gc][hc][ic][jc][kc][lc][mc][nc][oc][pc][qc][rc][sc][ad][bd][cd][dd][ed][gd][hd][id][jd][kd][ld][md][nd][od][pd][qd][rd][sd][ae][be][ce][de][ee][fe][ge][he][ie][je][ke][le][me][ne][pe][qe][re][af][ef][gf][kf][lf][mf][bg][cg][dg][ig][jg][lg][mg][og][pg][qg][rg][sg][ah][ch][ih][nh][oh][qh][rh][sh][ai][bi][ji][ki][li][mi][pi][qi][ri][si][aj][cj][jj][kj][lj][mj][oj][qj][rj][sj][ak][bk][ik][jk][lk][mk][nk][ok][qk][rk][sk][al][bl][il][ml][nl][ol][rl][sl][am][bm][hm][mm][pm][qm][an][cn][gn][hn][in][kn][sn][ao][bo][co][do][eo][fo][ho][io][jo][ko][lo][ap][bp][cp][dp][ep][gp][jp][kp][lp][mp][aq][bq][cq][dq][fq][gq][hq][iq][lq][ar][br][cr][dr][er][fr][gr][hr][jr][as][bs][cs][ds][es][fs][gs][hs][is][js][ks][ls][ss]TB[fj][ek][pq][qq][os][ps]))
(;B[]BL[30]OB[8]TW[aa][ba][ca][da][ea][ha][ia][ja][ka][la][ma][na][oa][pa][qa][ra][sa][ab][bb][cb][db][eb][gb][hb][ib][jb][kb][lb][mb][nb][ob][pb][qb][rb][sb][ac][bc][gc][hc][ic][jc][kc][lc][mc][nc][oc][pc][qc][rc][sc][ad][bd][cd][dd][ed][gd][hd][id][jd][kd][ld][md][nd][od][pd][qd][rd][sd][ae][be][ce][de][ee][fe][ge][he][ie][je][ke][le][me][ne][pe][qe][re][af][ef][gf][kf][lf][mf][bg][cg][dg][ig][jg][lg][mg][og][pg][qg][rg][sg][ah][ch][ih][nh][oh][qh][rh][sh][ai][bi][ji][ki][li][mi][pi][qi][ri][si][aj][cj][jj][kj][lj][mj][oj][qj][rj][sj][ak][bk][ik][jk][lk][mk][nk][ok][qk][rk][sk][al][bl][il][ml][nl][ol][rl][sl][am][bm][hm][mm][pm][qm][an][cn][gn][hn][in][kn][sn][ao][bo][co][do][eo][fo][ho][io][jo][ko][lo][ap][bp][cp][dp][ep][gp][jp][kp][lp][mp][aq][bq][cq][dq][fq][gq][hq][iq][lq][ar][br][cr][dr][er][fr][gr][hr][jr][as][bs][cs][ds][es][fs][gs][hs][is][js][ks][ls][ss]TB[fj][ek][pq][qq][os][ps]))
(;B[]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[]WL[30]OW[9]TW[aa][ba][ca][da][ea][ha][ia][ja][ka][la][ma][na][oa][pa][qa][ra][sa][ab][bb][cb][db][eb][gb][hb][ib][jb][kb][lb][mb][nb][ob][pb][qb][rb][sb][ac][bc][gc][hc][ic][jc][kc][lc][mc][nc][oc][pc][qc][rc][sc][ad][bd][cd][dd][ed][gd][hd][id][jd][kd][ld][md][nd][od][pd][qd][rd][sd][ae][be][ce][de][ee][fe][ge][he][ie][je][ke][le][me][ne][pe][qe][re][af][ef][gf][kf][lf][mf][bg][cg][dg][ig][jg][lg][mg][og][pg][qg][rg][sg][ah][ch][ih][nh][oh][qh][rh][sh][ai][bi][ji][ki][li][mi][pi][qi][ri][si][aj][cj][jj][kj][lj][mj][oj][qj][rj][sj][ak][bk][ik][jk][lk][mk][nk][ok][qk][rk][sk][al][bl][il][ml][nl][ol][rl][sl][am][bm][hm][mm][pm][qm][an][cn][gn][hn][in][kn][sn][ao][bo][co][do][eo][fo][ho][io][jo][ko][lo][ap][bp][cp][dp][ep][gp][jp][kp][lp][mp][aq][bq][cq][dq][fq][gq][hq][iq][lq][ar][br][cr][dr][er][fr][gr][hr][jr][as][bs][cs][ds][es][fs][gs][hs][is][js][ks][ls][ss]TB[fj][ek][pq][qq][os][ps]))

Robert Jasiek

2015-12-18 06:44:01 UTC

We cannot know the strength of the program because MC programs play
the most stupid moves as long as they are at least 0.5 points ahead.
Your rank is very roughly 50 kyu. Books such as Lessons in the
Fundamentals are way above your current level. You need much more
basic advice, such as recognising open boundaries at the fake end of
the game. Settle the upper left corner. When its boundary will be
settled and both will have passed, I guess that the program can assess
the position correctly. Its current judgement of the upper side is
wrong and violates the used Japanese style rules. I hope you are aware
that under Japanese rules filling territory loses points.

Bill

2015-12-18 15:48:34 UTC

Post by Robert Jasiek
We cannot know the strength of the program because MC programs play
the most stupid moves as long as they are at least 0.5 points ahead.
Your rank is very roughly 50 kyu. Books such as Lessons in the
Fundamentals are way above your current level. You need much more
basic advice, such as recognising open boundaries at the fake end of
the game.

Maybe I was ready to give up that game (I didn't consider it to be a
ranked game). I included the sgf from another game below.

Post by Robert Jasiek
Settle the upper left corner. When its boundary will be
settled and both will have passed, I guess that the program can assess
the position correctly. Its current judgement of the upper side is
wrong and violates the used Japanese style rules. I hope you are aware
that under Japanese rules filling territory loses points.

Yes, I am.

Here's a game I played later.
(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.50]
PW[EasyBot]PB[xxxxx]DT[2015-12-17]PC[The KGS Go Server at
http://www.gokgs.com/]C[EasyBot [-\]: GTP Engine for EasyBot (white):
HelloBot version 0.6.26.08
]RE[B+27.50]
;B[pp]
;W[pd]
;B[dd]
;W[dp]
;B[jj]
;W[nq]
;B[ob]
;W[hc]
;B[pj]
;W[qo]
;B[qp]
;W[qn]
;B[pl]
;W[lc]
;B[pc]
;W[qd]
;B[qc]
;W[gc]
;B[fb]
;W[cc]
;B[db]
;W[dc]
;B[ec]
;W[bc]
;B[eb]
;W[ck]
;B[cb]
;W[qg]
;B[cj]
;W[bk]
;B[ej]
;W[qk]
;B[pk]
;W[rk]
;B[ql]
;W[co]
;B[do]
;W[cp]
;B[em]
;W[dn]
;B[eo]
;W[en]
;B[go]
;W[gn]
;B[fo]
;W[cn]
;B[fn]
;W[gm]
;B[fm]
;W[gl]
;B[fl]
;W[ce]
;B[fj]
;W[cf]
;B[fk]
;W[iq]
;B[ch]
;W[gq]
;B[dk]
;W[cq]
;B[hp]
;W[qi]
;B[ho]
;W[eq]
;B[hq]
;W[fq]
;B[dm]
;W[jq]
;B[dj]
;W[nc]
;B[hk]
;W[gk]
;B[gj]
;W[lq]
;B[in]
;W[im]
;B[hl]
;W[hm]
;B[jm]
;W[il]
;B[jk]
;W[hj]
;B[ik]
;W[hi]
;B[jl]
;W[qf]
;B[hn]
;W[jc]
;B[je]
;W[ph]
;B[nh]
;W[dr]
;B[hh]
;W[ji]
;B[ii]
;W[gi]
;B[fh]
;W[jh]
;B[ih]
;W[jg]
;B[ij]
;W[ib]
;B[gh]
;W[rh]
;B[fi]
;W[hi]
;B[ff]
;W[oq]
;B[pq]
;W[cl]
;B[dl]
;W[kd]
;B[pr]
;W[rd]
;B[rc]
;W[fd]
;B[gb]
;W[ed]
;B[bb]
;W[de]
;B[hb]
;W[fe]
;B[ab]
;W[cd]
;B[oc]
;W[ic]
;B[na]
;W[nb]
;B[oa]
;W[mc]
;B[od]
;W[ha]
;B[ga]
;W[ia]
;B[oe]
;W[ma]
;B[pe]
;W[pf]
;B[qe]
;W[mb]
;B[re]
;W[sd]
;B[sc]
;W[np]
;B[se]
;W[rm]
;B[rl]
;W[rf]
;B[sf]
;W[sl]
;B[qm]
;W[rp]
;B[rq]
;W[sq]
;B[sr]
;W[sp]
;B[rr]
;W[ro]
;B[ps]
;W[qj]
;B[rs]
;W[qr]
;B[pn]
;W[sg]
;B[po]
;W[rn]
;B[om]
;W[sm]
;B[on]
;W[sk]
;B[ol]
;W[mr]
;B[qq]
;W[bg]
;B[bh]
;W[ah]
;B[cg]
;W[ac]
;B[bf]
;W[ag]
;B[ai]
;W[be]
;B[af]
;W[bi]
;B[bj]
;W[ef]
;B[ci]
;W[ae]
;B[bg]
;W[ah]
;B[ag]
;W[aj]
;B[ak]
;W[fg]
;B[aj]
;W[gf]
;B[hf]
;W[hg]
;B[ig]
;W[if]
;B[he]
;W[gg]
;B[jf]
;W[dg]
;B[ie]
;W[hd]
;B[if]
;W[cm]
;B[al]
;W[kg]
;B[mg]
;W[br]
;B[lh]
;W[li]
;B[ki]
;W[kj]
;B[kh]
;W[kf]
;B[ke]
;W[lf]
;B[lg]
;W[le]
;B[mf]
;W[nd]
;B[me]
;W[ld]
;B[ne]
;W[lj]
;B[mk]
;W[ni]
;B[mi]
;W[oj]
;B[mj]
;W[pi]
;B[lk]
;W[kk]
;B[kl]
;W[kj]
;B[oh]
;W[oi]
;B[ng]
;W[bp]
;B[nj]
;W[bn]
;B[nk]
;W[am]
;B[ok]
;W[an]
;B[bl]
;W[kb]
;B[kn]
;W[kp]
;B[lo]
;W[hr]
;B[no]
;W[os]
;B[oo]
;W[mo]
;B[mn]
;W[nn]
;B[nm]
;W[mp]
;B[ln]
;W[or]
;B[jo]
;W[gr]
;B[ip]
;W[op]
;B[jp]
;W[ir]
;B[ko]
;W[kq]
;B[of]
;W[pg]
;B[og]
;W[ll]
;B[ml]
;W[lm]
;B[mm]
;W[kr]
;B[km]
;W[]
;B[]TW[ja][ka][la][jb][lb][kc][ad][bd][dd][ee][df][ff][rg][qh][sh][ri][si][rj][sj][sn][ao][bo][so][ap][aq][bq][dq][mq][ar][cr][er][fr][jr][lr][nr][as][bs][cs][ds][es][fs][gs][hs][is][js][ks][ls][ms][ns]TB[aa][ba][ca][da][ea][fa][pa][qa][ra][sa][pb][qb][rb][sb][pd][qd][rd][sd][nf][ah][mh][bi][gi][hi][li][hj][kj][lj][ek][gk][kk][el][gl][il][ll][nl][gm][hm][im][lm][pm][gn][jn][nn][io][qr][qs][ss])

Bill

2015-12-18 16:01:26 UTC

Post by Bill
Having learned the rules of Go a couple of decades ago from a library
book (because "it looked fun") but having never really played the
game, I starting playing the igowin program about a week ago. I am
making it to 11 Kyu level now on the 9x9 board. Yesterday, I was only
making it to the12 Kyu level... : ) <snip>

I made it to the 10Kyu level last night, so I'm making progress (of
course, I can tell I am making progress even without the number; I also
have a better glimpse of what I still have to learn).

Bill

Robert Jasiek

2015-12-18 17:09:45 UTC

Post by Bill
I made it to the 10Kyu level last night, so I'm making progress (of
course, I can tell I am making progress even without the number; I also
have a better glimpse of what I still have to learn).

A moderate description of your second game is that your play is as bad
as in your first game.

STOP PLAYING PROGRAMS IMMEDIATELY.

You only copy their terrible play and hinder your progress. "10 kyu"
is a joke. Your level is roughly 50 kyu. Does the program tell you "10
kyu"? Do not trust a program that plays like 50 kyu to give you a
better feeling.

STOP PLAYING PROGRAMS IMMEDIATELY.

Did I already tell you?

STOP PLAYING PROGRAMS IMMEDIATELY.

Bill

2015-12-18 17:40:18 UTC

STOP PLAYING PROGRAMS IMMEDIATELY. Did I already tell you? STOP
PLAYING PROGRAMS IMMEDIATELY.

Yes, I wanted to develop some skill before I started involving other
people's gaming time.
My first post indicated I learned the rules a couple (4) decades ago,
and I'm only 2 weeks into the game. I've make quite a bit of progress
in 2 weeks, by watching games, working practice problems, and reading.
One of the problems with the computer matches, as you may know, is that
one is tempted to play speedily...

Bill

Robert Jasiek

2015-12-18 18:21:27 UTC

Next, avoid connecting connected stones.

At the end, settle all boundaries between B and W regions.

Bill

2015-12-18 19:37:48 UTC

Post by Robert Jasiek
Next, avoid connecting connected stones.

Yes, I went back and found a place where I did that.... a pointless play.

Post by Robert Jasiek
At the end, settle all boundaries between B and W regions.

Bill

2015-12-27 10:27:53 UTC

Post by Robert Jasiek
Next, avoid connecting connected stones.

Robert,

It's been 9 days since you've seen one of my games. Here's one I just
played, where the result was close (I lost by 10), but I
probably/definitely should have been able to save the lower-right hand
corner... (the 30-second clock is not my friend). Please take a
look, if you have time, and see whether I improved, or whether my
(computer) opponent was very kind to me! : ) Comments welcome, of course!

Bill

(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.50]TM[0]OT[9x30 byo-yomi]
PW[mfgo15kyu0]PB[xxxxx]BR[21k]DT[2015-12-27]PC[The KGS Go Server at
http://www.gokgs.com/]C[mfgo15kyu0 [-\]: GTP Engine for mfgo15kyu0
(white): Many Faces of Go version 12 (2002, 2008, 2010 world champion),
playing at level 15 kyu. Uses Many Faces' knowledge combined with Monte
Carlo evaluation. Free evaluation download at www.smart-games.com.
iPhone/iPod Igowin app has this full engine.
]RE[W+10.50]
;B[qp]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[qc]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[cd]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[co]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[dq]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ic]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[fc]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[cl]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[cj]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[fq]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[dp]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[oq]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[dr]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[ld]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[qf]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[qm]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[qk]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[lp]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[np]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[op]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[nq]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[nr]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[no]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[oo]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[qq]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[nn]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[qo]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[pr]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[qr]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[ip]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[lq]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[kq]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[mq]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[mo]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ko]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[mm]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[cg]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[qs]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[rs]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[ps]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[rr]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[pn]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[qn]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[rm]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[rn]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[do]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[cp]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[bo]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[bp]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[pi]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[qi]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[ph]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[qh]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[pg]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[qg]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[pj]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[qj]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[pl]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[pk]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[ok]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ql]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[pf]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[pe]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[oe]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[pd]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[od]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[pc]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[km]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[oc]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[nc]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[nb]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[mb]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ma]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[mc]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ob]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[la]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[na]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[kb]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[qe]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[lk]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ie]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[fr]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[el]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[dk]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ck]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[ep]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ci]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[en]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[bk]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[dl]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ch]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[bl]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[cf]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[jp]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ej]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[dj]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[di]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[ei]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[fi]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[ek]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[eh]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[fk]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[fj]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[fl]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[hj]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[jn]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[jj]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[kr]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[mj]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[lj]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[li]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[mi]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[mh]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[ni]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[lh]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[mf]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[lf]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[ne]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ke]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[kd]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[jd]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[jc]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[hd]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[mr]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ki]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[nh]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[mg]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[ng]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[le]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[gk]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[gj]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[hk]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ij]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[er]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[kj]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[hm]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[jl]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[mk]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[kk]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[id]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[hc]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[hb]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[gb]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[ib]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ga]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[im]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[kl]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[ll]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[jm]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[kn]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[il]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[hl]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ik]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[je]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[jf]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[jd]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[if]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[sk]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[rk]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[rl]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[sj]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[sl]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[sn]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[me]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[sm]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[pm]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[rc]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[rd]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[qb]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[ap]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[aq]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[ao]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[bq]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[cr]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[br]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[ds]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[bs]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[cs]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[qd]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[al]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ak]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[pq]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[he]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[po]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ha]BL[30]OB[8]
;W[ia]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[]BL[30]OB[7]
;W[pp]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[]BL[30]OB[7]
;W[]WL[30]OW[9]TW[ja][ka][jb][lb][kc][lc][md][nd][nf][of][og][oh][oi][mj][nj][oj][nk][el][gl][ml][nl][ol][am][bm][cm][dm][em][fm][gm][lm][nm][om][an][bn][cn][dn][fn][gn][hn][in][ln][mn][on][eo][fo][go][ho][io][jo][ko][lo][no][bp][cp][dp][fp][gp][hp][kp][mp][np][aq][bq][cq][dq][eq][gq][hq][iq][jq][lq][mq][nq][ar][br][dr][gr][hr][ir][jr][lr][or][as][bs][es][fs][gs][hs][is][js][ks][ls][ms][ns][os]TB[aa][ba][ca][da][ea][fa][oa][pa][qa][ra][sa][ab][bb][cb][db][eb][fb][pb][rb][sb][ac][bc][cc][dc][ec][gc][qc][sc][ad][bd][dd][ed][fd][gd][rd][sd][ae][be][ce][de][ee][fe][ge][re][se][af][bf][df][ef][ff][gf][hf][kf][rf][sf][ag][bg][dg][eg][fg][gg][hg][ig][jg][kg][lg][rg][sg][ah][bh][dh][fh][gh][hh][ih][jh][kh][rh][sh][ai][bi][ei][gi][hi][ii][ji][ri][si][aj][bj][rj][jk][ro][so][rp][sp][rq][sq][sr][ss])

Bill

2015-12-27 10:40:44 UTC

Post by Robert Jasiek
Next, avoid connecting connected stones.

It appears to me that the lower LEFT-hand corner, (not the right-hand
corner, my error above) corner should have ended in "seki" (if I had
played my stones better).

Bill

Robert Jasiek

2015-12-27 14:03:01 UTC

Just looking at the first 30 moves, I say the same as before.

STOP PLAYING AGAINST COMPUTER PROGRAMS IMMEDIATELY.

Bill

2015-12-27 21:53:51 UTC

Post by Robert Jasiek
Just looking at the first 30 moves, I say the same as before.
STOP PLAYING AGAINST COMPUTER PROGRAMS IMMEDIATELY.

I hear you, and I'm keeping my eye open for other opponents. I even
invited someone who was watching one of my games to a game. But
beginners are shy.

BTW, I thought B started looking good around move 80 (making the biggest
territory I ever made). But thank you for looking.

Even if computer's don't make ideal opponents, they are helping me
learn. As you know (but not as you might approach writing a book),
learning Go is not a linear path. Basically, a new player will not
remember every detail they learn as they play; in contrast, a book never
forgets.

I'll offer you $10 (US) for a pdf copy of your book "Lessons in the
Fundamentals" if you are willing to introduce me to your work at this price.

Bill

Robert Jasiek

2015-12-27 22:50:20 UTC

they are helping me learn.

They are also helping you to learn bad moves.

I'll offer you $10 (US) for a pdf copy of your book "Lessons in the
Fundamentals" if you are willing to introduce me to your work at this price.

Mine is "First Fundamentals". The PDF price of EUR 12.5 already is
cheap and I cannot offer it for less.

When I was a beginner, Lessons in the Fundamentals was my first book.
I was faced with a similar decision and thought: "expensive". In
retrospect it has been worth 10 times its price. Go books are not as
cheap as novels because go books are more specialised literature.

Bill

2015-12-28 00:34:57 UTC

they are helping me learn.

They are also helping you to learn bad moves.

I'll offer you $10 (US) for a pdf copy of your book "Lessons in the
Fundamentals" if you are willing to introduce me to your work at this price.

Mine is "First Fundamentals". The PDF price of EUR 12.5 already is
cheap and I cannot offer it for less.

I understand. Thanks. I would rather read from a hard copy anyway so I
will add it to my "wish list" of books that I am interested in collecting!

Bill

Bill

2015-12-28 12:41:03 UTC

Post by Robert Jasiek
Just looking at the first 30 moves, I say the same as before.
STOP PLAYING AGAINST COMPUTER PROGRAMS IMMEDIATELY.

Okay, I just played my first game against a person online, with similar
ranking, and won too. It did feel like a different experience, but
after a few minutes I played with some confidence due to my experience
with the bots. It surprised me that I saw a "snap-back" opportunity and
it worked. I was surprised how clearly I saw it (it must have been all
those practice problems I did last week).

The scoring confused me. Will you please look at the board, linked to
below, and explain why I (White) didn't get all of the lower right hand
corner? I was surprised I didn't get K-11 and Q-19 too. What am I
overlooking?

Loading Image...

Bill

Robert Jasiek

2015-12-28 13:23:28 UTC

Post by Bill
"snap-back"

I learnt this as 9 kyu, so you are on a good track:)

Post by Bill
The scoring confused me.

On a server after successive passes, you are expected to click on the
dead stones so that the server knows they are dead. Then scoring
should work correctly. (Usually. There are arcane exceptions, which
you avoid by filling the neutral intersections outside sekis before
passing.)

Rainer Rosenthal

2015-12-28 22:03:07 UTC

Post by Robert Jasiek
On a server after successive passes, you are expected to click on the
dead stones so that the server knows they are dead. Then scoring
should work correctly.

@Bill: n4, p19 and r5 are dead. So you should have clicked on them to
mark them as dead. As Robert said, the scoring will work properly then.

Cheers and congrats to your snapback success!
Rainer

Bill

2015-12-19 21:37:38 UTC

STOP PLAYING PROGRAMS IMMEDIATELY. Did I already tell you? STOP
PLAYING PROGRAMS IMMEDIATELY.

Is one reason because it "fatigues" one's brain out too fast?

I did read 2/3 of a beginners book yesterday and learned lots of
"fundamental" strategy, and solved every problem provided.

Not being able to find a human opponent, I beat the "easy bot" again,
and then went and played the MFOG-12, got beat, and went back and
reviewed it play by play, making note of all of the bad moves I played
(for instance, I should remember when a big group is dead, and not
"invest" around it). Also, I need to keep aware of the "big picture".
Also I remembered what the book said about rows 4 and 3 being the most
important (compared to row 2, and the middle say). That was new
information, for me. There are lots of heuristics to keep in mind... I
can tell for sure that I am making progress! : ) I did play a real
person on a 9^2 game yesterday, but was "beat" before it was half
done... I should have saved a copy. To me the "early game" is the most
fascinating, and it will remain so until I come out of it on top, and it
bleeds into the middle game! : )

Cheers,
Bill

Robert Jasiek

2015-12-20 06:14:11 UTC

STOP PLAYING PROGRAMS IMMEDIATELY. Did I already tell you? STOP
PLAYING PROGRAMS IMMEDIATELY.

Is one reason because it "fatigues" one's brain out too fast?

No. The reason is that you learn to copy the programs' bad moves and
do not get punished properly for your bad moves.

Post by Bill
I did read 2/3 of a beginners book yesterday and learned lots of
"fundamental" strategy, and solved every problem provided.

Does this book tell you not to connect connected stones?

Do you recall everything from the book and can apply everything?
(Otherwise you read the book too fast.)

Bill

2015-12-20 07:37:49 UTC

STOP PLAYING PROGRAMS IMMEDIATELY. Did I already tell you? STOP
PLAYING PROGRAMS IMMEDIATELY.

Is one reason because it "fatigues" one's brain out too fast?

No. The reason is that you learn to copy the programs' bad moves and
do not get punished properly for your bad moves.

I learn alot from reviewing the games. I played 4 games today, reviewing
in between each of them. The 9-kyu bot, punished me well-enough for my
bad moves, better than the 15-kyu bot.

Post by Bill
I did read 2/3 of a beginners book yesterday and learned lots of
"fundamental" strategy, and solved every problem provided.

Does this book tell you not to connect connected stones?

No, it was short on words and long on problems.

Do you recall everything from the book and can apply everything?
(Otherwise you read the book too fast.)
The book was not deep. Its title was "Falling In Love with Baduk", and I
just happen to run across it online. I put the concentration where it
needed to go. I didn't memorize the book; I focused on the ideas while I
was solving the problems. Games, of course, don't play like the
problems, because players read the board, work on several problems at
the same time, and even choose to develop instead of winning a battle.
And the book problems are comparably tiny. Technicalities, like I
learned from the book, don't seem to come up in games as frequently as
one might guess. But I've had some good practice in "liberty counting"
(acquired from another web site) that improved my play. I figured out
why one shouldn't generally attack right next to an opponents piece, on
my own. I've noticed that we basically try to form "hyperbolic" shapes
in the corners (in the opening), and attack "under" our opponents. I'm
paying a lot more attention to the layout of the pieces in the opening;
and where the players put the stones is making more sense. When I
observe the dan-players games, I look at them from the first move. As I
suggested above, things are making more sense. "Applying everything",
in harmony, is slightly unrealistic at this point. Let me get 10 games,
on a full-size board, under my belt.. :)

Stay tuned!

Bill

Robert Jasiek

2015-12-20 08:24:43 UTC

Post by Bill
I learn alot from reviewing the games.
I focused on the ideas

Good.

Post by Bill
short on words and long on problems.

Although problems are useful, for learning go theory, this mixture is
bad.

Post by Bill
"Falling In Love with Baduk"

I do not know it.

You might also have a look on Jonathan Hop's books, which rely on 1
move at a time teaching. Maybe they are easy enough for you. However,
I have not read them and cannot know for sure.

Bill

2015-12-20 08:57:48 UTC

Post by Bill
I learn alot from reviewing the games.
I focused on the ideas

Good.

Post by Bill
short on words and long on problems.

Although problems are useful, for learning go theory, this mixture is
bad.

Post by Bill
"Falling In Love with Baduk"

I do not know it.
You might also have a look on Jonathan Hop's books, which rely on 1
move at a time teaching. Maybe they are easy enough for you. However,
I have not read them and cannot know for sure.

Thanks for your suggestions! I will investigate (Jonathon Hop's books).

Bill

Bill

2015-12-25 06:55:20 UTC

MFOG-15 only beat me by 25 today... I'm improving! : )

If I can avoid some stupid habits (like playing "slow"), I ought to be
able to win one.
Go is a pretty long game, and it's not easy to avoid making a few bad
moves...
I need to keep watching what my opponent is doing too... Lots of things...

Bill

Robert Jasiek

2015-12-25 07:23:07 UTC

it's not easy to avoid making a few bad moves...

You have understood the spirit of the game! :)

Merry Xmas

Rainer Rosenthal

2015-12-25 14:58:52 UTC

it's not easy to avoid making a few bad moves...

You have understood the spirit of the game! :)
Merry Xmas

Let me add another quote from my favorite Aji's Quest.
The first lines read:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Aji has been playing Go for a whole month...
and he still sucks at it!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Having read that, I immediately fell in love with
http://home.earthlink.net/~inkwolf/Inkwolf/Ajis_Quest.html

There is also a German translation available on my
homepage: www.rwro.de
Aji comes in eight booklets (PDF) and maybe there would only
be three of them, because I became lazy. But thanks to an
eMail from a 10-year-old young lady I took up translating
and proudly finished the story.

Baduk TV has bought the rights - as far as I know - and
published the comic in colour and witth a lot of extra pictures.

Thanks for the positive comments. I sent them to the author,
Colette Bezio.

Merry Christmas to everyone, and a Happy New Year,
Rainer

Bill

2015-12-26 23:02:13 UTC

Post by Bill
MFOG-15 only beat me by 25 today... I'm improving! : )

MFOG-15 only beat me by 6.5 today in my third game today, (I only give
it .5 for the komi), so I'm still making progress... Lots of people
would have probably given up by now! : )

Bill

2015-12-28 10:04:10 UTC

Post by Bill
MFOG-15 only beat me by 25 today... I'm improving! : )

MFOG-15 only beat me by 6.5 today in my third game today, (I only give
it .5 for the komi), so I'm still making progress... Lots of people
would have probably given up by now! : )

I finally beat mfog-15 (by 26.5).
Of course, I know the bots are not perfect opponents (but, neither am
I...) One difference today is that I "maintained my composure" enough
to not let stupid things happen (sometimes it feels like a long game).
It is helping (alot) that I am making moves with purpose, which is a
relatively new phenomenon for me--playing the aggressor as well as the
reactor, since I have only recently learned how to do so. I have a
better understanding of the goals too (corners and sides!) I
occasionally have moved without even paying attention to my opponents
move (that will occasionally get you in trouble)! :) From looking at
Robert Jasiek's book sample today I also saved myself a number of
"wasted moves", or rather played them when the time was right. This
"restraint" (there are quite a few things to keep track of on a Go
board!) probably made some of the difference. It takes a certain
amount of "maturity" in the game to keep track of what is going on--and
I am getting more more used to it. With practice, I'm becoming a better
"reader" too. And at 30 seconds a move, one has to pay attention, and
already know some basic facts about life and death (3 cells, 4 cells, 5
cells, 6 cells). No matter what little some will say I know now, by
comparison, it's much more than I knew when I first posted 3 weeks ago.
When I see the videos that some people post to YouTube about the game,
and the longs series' of books, it makes me wonder what to pursue from
"the game". One unexpected thing I have gotten from my quest however,
is an even higher respect for the asian cultures in which the game is
more popular. Perhaps that's the best thing... Anyway, that's my
story. Happy holidays!

Cheers,
Bill

Robert Jasiek

2015-12-28 12:06:57 UTC

Post by Bill
it's much more than I knew when I first posted 3 weeks ago.

Nice:)

Post by Bill
the asian cultures in which the game is more popular.

I think it is accidental that go is the more complicated game than
chess or mankala. While the appearance of the games fit well in East
Asian, Indian / Western, African / Central Asian parts of the world,
the strategic implications are not caused specifically by them. Just a
game having occurred in a region has naturally become more popular
there. Only nowadays, with almost world-wide exchange of ideas,
popularity can change more easily independently of origin.

Rainer Rosenthal

2015-12-28 22:32:12 UTC

Post by Bill
it's much more than I knew when I first posted 3 weeks ago.

Nice:)

Post by Bill
the asian cultures in which the game is more popular.

Sorry I didn't get the meaning of this. Bill talked about "even higher
respect for the asian cultures in which the game is more popular".
And isn't he right?
It's a shame that the game of Chess vanished completely from the
TV channels. In the 70ties it could be seen in cultur-related channels
at reasonable times in the evening, sometimes. Then it was driven
deep into the night. And then it vanished completely.

Cheers,
Rainer

Robert Jasiek

2015-12-29 08:21:09 UTC

Post by Rainer Rosenthal
It's a shame that the game of Chess vanished completely from the
TV channels.

Ah, ok, if you mean presence in the media, then yes, this is by far
better for Go in South Korea and Japan (but AFAIK not so much China)
than for Chess in Germany, where it is all about physical sports and
life endangering activities.

troule

2015-12-31 19:59:00 UTC

Post by Rainer Rosenthal
It's a shame that the game of Chess vanished completely from the
TV channels.

Weiqi vanished from CCTV programs to give plave for soccer, golf...
To my knowledge there is still a very few episodic local (province) weiqi TV channels (like in Guiyang)

I hope your words are true for Japan and Korea

Rainer Rosenthal

2016-01-01 00:13:20 UTC

Post by troule
Weiqi vanished from CCTV programs to give plave for soccer, golf...

*snif*

Cheers, and a happy New Year,
Rainer

Rainer Rosenthal

2015-12-28 22:25:00 UTC

Post by Bill
Anyway, that's my
story. Happy holidays!

Happy holidays to you, too, Bill!
It was a pleasure to read your musings about the game and your
approach to it.

I am a pensioner and have the pleasure to teach Go at two
schools.
My aim is to get children become aquainted with this beautiful game.
Each child develops its own way of getting aquainted and I love to
keep playing an interesting task for them.
I am only 7 kyu and very fond of the game. I know enough to help
the children play correctly. That means that I tell them about Ko
if they need to to know and that I show them where stones are dead.
I always try to answer questions that they really ask.

As 7k I am aware that I am a beginner, too. So I refrain from
telling them any "truths", but encourage them to explore the
game by themselves. They seem to enjoy this easy way and many of
them enlist again for my courses which last about 6 weeks, where
they play one and a half hour each Thursday.

I hope that Go will be a fascinating pastime for you in 2016, too.
Let's play on KGS when you see me (GoRoGoRo) there.

All the best,
Rainer

Bill

2015-12-29 01:48:22 UTC

Post by Rainer Rosenthal

Post by Bill
Anyway, that's my
story. Happy holidays!

Happy holidays to you, too, Bill!
It was a pleasure to read your musings about the game and your
approach to it.

Thank you Rainer. I want to reply to your post, but not in a hurried
manner. And, I just made another post, that turned out longer that it
was going to be, in another place in this thread, so I must postpone the
former for now. But that will give me something to look forward to!

Cheers,
Bill

Bill

2016-01-11 15:40:43 UTC