Memory

[Ironco]

I have heard that memory is really important in the game of Go. I know
that most pros and strong amateurs can replay a game from memory.
I would like to know if anybody has a photographic memory and can
remember a go diagram or game just by looking at it once?

Later,
Ironco

[Chris Lawrence]

Post by Ironco
I would like to know if anybody has a photographic memory and can
remember a go diagram or game just by looking at it once?

Not quite... I've been known to look at a board and think "Hah, I've got
him now! Oh hang on, *I'm* white!"

[Ben Finney]

Post by Chris Lawrence
Not quite... I've been known to look at a board and think "Hah, I've
got him now! Oh hang on, *I'm* white!"

A player at my local club has a habit of starting a game without putting
on his glasses, and then realising halfway through that he's squinting.

His favourite joke at this point, upon retrieving his glasses from his
pocket, cleaning them and putting them on, is to look at the board and
exclaim "Aha! There are black *and* white stomes! That changes
everything."

[Chris Lawrence]

Post by Ben Finney
A player at my local club has a habit of starting a game without putting
on his glasses, and then realising halfway through that he's squinting.

Strangely enough I find it helps to squint at the board now and again.
It blurs the groups into black and white shapes and sometimes makes key
points for both players become obvious. I think you can only get away
with this online :-)

Post by Ben Finney
His favourite joke at this point, upon retrieving his glasses from his
pocket, cleaning them and putting them on, is to look at the board and
exclaim "Aha! There are black *and* white stomes! That changes
everything."

Heh. Mind you has he seen the game where all the stones are black and
each player has to memorise which stones belong to whom? I saw it
mentioned on SL but can't find it now.

[Ben Finney]

Post by Ironco
I have heard that memory is really important in the game of Go. I know
that most pros and strong amateurs can replay a game from memory.

Yes. When playing through a game, it is fairly simple to become
immersed in it, and thus commit the sequence of moves to memory. With a
little training (through mere repetition) replaying games isn't a
difficult thing to do.

Post by Ironco
I would like to know if anybody has a photographic memory and can
remember a go diagram or game just by looking at it once?

This, is quite a different request. A Go game record is efficiently
represented on one or a few diagrams; this doesn't mean, though, that it
efficiently conveys the sequence of moves to the human mind.

Remembering a game we've played through isn't an application of
"photographic memory". We need to consciously play through the moves,
preferably with a Go set, but at least in our minds, by playing each
stone in order. It's the sequence of moves that is remembered, not the
final layout.

The image (the diagram showing the final board layout) is abstract and
distanced from us; we need to translate it into an experience to make it
easy to remember.

[holigor]

Post by Ironco
I have heard that memory is really important in the game of Go. I know
that most pros and strong amateurs can replay a game from memory.
I would like to know if anybody has a photographic memory and can
remember a go diagram or game just by looking at it once?
Later,
Ironco

Photographic memory is the worst thing possible. Truly excellent
memory is based on the ability to understand and classify. When
remembering a go diagram you have to grasp what is the point first.

It is not difficult to reproduce the game almost 100% accurate
immidiately after it was played and on the same day. But it is not a
reproduction of a series of images, you just remember what where the
ideas behind your moves, what were the problems you faced in this
game, what where the mistakes. There were some major critical points
in the game. Everything in between was just natural etc.

And, of course, there is another component to memorizing. Emotions,
feeling, fear, joy, frustration etc.

I don't remember the game for too long. I guess some pros can
reproduce all their games. That is special.

[Bob Myers]

I recently spoke to a pro in Japan and was discussing game databases
containing tens of thousand of games. He stated that he thought he had
10,000 games in his head. Of course, for a pro remembering one of your own
games that you spent hours playing and then more hours reviewing is a matter
of course, but the average pro has played less than 1000 games, so this
means the pro in question has another 9,000 games that he has "memorized"
(although I'd be surprised if he could replay all of them all the way to the
end).

I also made the mistake of asserting that the current state-of-the-art in
computer-based life-and death is so advanced that the programs can solve
problems that "even he couldn't solve". He quickly corrected me, saying I
must mean "problems that might take him as much as an hour to solve".

--
Bob Myers

Post by holigor

Post by Ironco
I have heard that memory is really important in the game of Go. I know
that most pros and strong amateurs can replay a game from memory.
I would like to know if anybody has a photographic memory and can
remember a go diagram or game just by looking at it once?

Photographic memory is the worst thing possible. Truly excellent
memory is based on the ability to understand and classify. When
remembering a go diagram you have to grasp what is the point first.
It is not difficult to reproduce the game almost 100% accurate
immidiately after it was played and on the same day. But it is not a
reproduction of a series of images, you just remember what where the
ideas behind your moves, what were the problems you faced in this
game, what where the mistakes. There were some major critical points
in the game. Everything in between was just natural etc.
And, of course, there is another component to memorizing. Emotions,
feeling, fear, joy, frustration etc.
I don't remember the game for too long. I guess some pros can
reproduce all their games. That is special.

[Richard Hunter]

Post by Bob Myers
I also made the mistake of asserting that the current state-of-the-art in
computer-based life-and death is so advanced that the programs can solve
problems that "even he couldn't solve". He quickly corrected me, saying I
must mean "problems that might take him as much as an hour to solve".

Assuming that pros have studied all the classical problems, you need to
find an original new one to challenge them. Cho U is renowned as a
creator of difficult tsumego. During a Honinbo commentary on TV,
Takemiya mentioned that one of Cho's problems took him all the way from
Tokyo to Osaka (on the shinkansen) to solve. He hastened to add that he
didn't spent the whole journey concentrating on it.

[Alexandre Michelot]

Post by holigor

Post by Ironco
I have heard that memory is really important in the game of Go. I know
that most pros and strong amateurs can replay a game from memory.
I would like to know if anybody has a photographic memory and can
remember a go diagram or game just by looking at it once?

Photographic memory is the worst thing possible. Truly excellent
memory is based on the ability to understand and classify. When
remembering a go diagram you have to grasp what is the point first.

Still, I wonder occasionally how much the way someone's brain is wired
affects their reading ability.
My memory doesn't seem to have a strong visual element; I have trouble
remembering images or visualizing even simple shapes on the go board,
in the sense that I can actually "see" them in my mind. I'm curious
whether this is easier for other people. Can strong players visualize
a sequence of moves exactly (locally, or on the whole board)?

The brain is some kind of associative memory. You can't remember
something alone, it need some kind of anchor to stay...
So, when you begin go, you try to guess, using your experience where to
play. After a some progress, response are automatic, because they are
related to games you played, studied, etc. ...
For example, when you started studying L&D, you try to figure out all
the path and if one was correct, with some experience, considering a
shape, you know where the vital point is...
If you generalize to the whole board, it is the same with territory,
moyo, tenuki... Seeing a position, it "react" with some part of your
brain and you know what the right move is...

The moves that lead to a win are reinforced while the moves leading to a
loss are less considered (localy and/or globaly).
It is also a reason why beginner shouldn't play too much against other
beginners... Doing a mistake that turn in a victory due to the oppenent
fault give bad habits... That's why some average kyu players play
sometimes awful moves... This are memories of the past.

Every kind of anchor may work just fine. I used to study tsumego while
listening music. Now, when I play an important game, I have to listen
the same old songs to feel confident. It helps me to relax and to be in
a certain state of mind: The one to kill... or to live.

[gowan]

Post by Ironco
I would like to know if anybody has a photographic memory and can
remember a go diagram or game just by looking at it once?
Later,
Ironco

It seems that remembering a one-diagram game record with numbered
moves from just a glance at it would be phenomenal. I wouldn't be
surprised if a good player could remember a final board position
(before rearrangement for counting) after examining it for a minute or
two.

[Pekka Karjalainen]

Post by Ironco
I have heard that memory is really important in the game of Go. I know
that most pros and strong amateurs can replay a game from memory.
I would like to know if anybody has a photographic memory and can
remember a go diagram or game just by looking at it once?

I believe that if you study go, you automatically develop memory
techniques that help in remembering the sort of positions you encounter in
actual play. I find I can remember go positions and my games (to some
degree, since I don't usually make a special effort) when they make sense,
but just putting stones randomly on the goban results in positions that
make no sense, and which I can't remember for any length of time.

Having a naturally good memory can help with go, but since go skill
mostly comes from training (and starting young :) it is just a useful
ability to have, and it hasn't been shown that it is a necessity to reach
a higher level of skill. Do all high amateur dans have a good memory for
subjects outside go?

I would think it a foolish idea to believe some given ability is
necessary to reach dan level, since at best it would only result in some
people who don't have it not trying. (No, you can't convince me with
anecdotal evidence.)

Comparing the situation with languages could be interesting. Consider a
sentence in English:

When I woke up this morning, it was raining, and the grass is still wet.

And the same in Finnish:

Herätessäni tänä aamuna satoi, ja ruoho on vielä märkää.

For those readers who don't speak Finnish: which sentence would you be
more likely to remember after looking at it for a few minutes? How about
after two days have passed?

It is the same with go. If the diagrams, games or situations mean
something to you, you can remember them by 'grabbing on to' the features
which aid your memory. IOW, you have to know the grammar and the
vocabulary of the game...

Wasn't there a brain study that suggested that go players mostly use the
sections of their brains that are related to memory when playing? You
might think that this means go isn't really at thinking game, but it also
might mean it is best to do the so-called creative thinking when studying
the game, and relying more on your memory when playing. (but not memory
alone, since you will run into situation you haven't seen before)

Pekka K.
Tsumu [3d] @ KGS